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Debate-For MJ's Only 'To Keep the Passover you must be circumcised'

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Lulav, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    A male who is uncircumcised within the 'family of G_d' is guilty of repudiating G_d's Covenant and must be cut off from G_d's people, ergo, to take part in the Passover one is reaffirming that Covenant made when they were circumcised. The lamb is not used today because there is no sacrificial system in use today and so the lamb shank represents what would have been sacrificed - nothing more

    I shall not delve into writing about Yeshua as you have rejected any spiritual connotations attached to this.
     
  2. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    Passover is an uniquely Jewish affair. It's tribal- the easiest way to describe it. A good analogy for this here site would be Christmas and Easter rolled into one, but only applicable to the Irish Catholics. The first Passover was only a Jewish affair at the pivotal point. It is reasonable to have the rememberance of that event celebrated in the same manner- circumcision being the sign of belonging to the tribe.
     
  3. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    "In the days of the apostles, the Gentile believers were free to remain
    uncircumcised, but if they wanted to make a Passover sacrifice, they
    would have been required to first undergo circumcision and conversion
    to become legally Jewish."
    (FFOZ).​

    There's no longer a Temple nor is a Passover sacrifice required (e.g. pigeon, lamb). So why the need for a male (uncircumcised) non-Jew to become a legal (circumcised) Jew? Among Yeshua's last sayings were, "It is Finished!" is tetelestai, an accounting term that means "paid in full." Thus the appointed Feast of Pesach was fulfilled nearly 2000 years ago.

    Thus the reason ... "why is that not held to?" ... is because today's MJ organizations, like FFOZ and others, do not stipulate that male members or male guests first become legally Jewish (circumcised), if not already, before they can participate in a Pesach Seder Service. Messianic Jews believe that Yeshua is the Lamb of G-d having fulfilled all three Feasts: Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits. MJs (Jew and non-Jew) commemorate these three fulfilled Feasts in symbolic honor of Messiah Yeshua, the true Lamb of G-d.


    Your question revolves around whether or not Yeshua and His Disciples ate a type of Essene bread instead of actual unleavened Matzah, as it was bread that was dipped in the sop and given to Judas Iscariot. This controversy continues with Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:24-27, giving the impression that Believers in Messiah Yeshua (Jew and non-Jew) do this as often as they get together. The implication beng that Yeshua's last meal with His Disciples established a new kind of seder meal? The Feast of Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits was soon to be fulfilled.

    What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?
    What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?

    Further insight by Alex Tennent in his book ~ The Messianic Feast, Moving Beyond The Ritual
    http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Course_3.pdf
     
  4. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    That is definitely the Judaism aspect of Messianic Judaism. So Lulav's inquiry: WHY should/does a Messianic Judaism Passover/Pesach Seder Service be open to the public to include uncircumcised males that aren't legally Jewish? This would be offensive to some of the Messianic Jewish members.

    On one hand is a Jewish Synagogue (Conservative) that celebrates the Feast of "The Haggadah - Passover." The Rabbi and Jewish members don't accept the fact that the first three Feasts were fulfilled by Yeshua nearly 2000 years ago. According to the Torah such a Conservative Synagogue shouldn't allow an uncircumcised male (non-Jew) to participate in their Seder Service when he isn't a legal Jew?

    So, i agree that a non-Jew shouldn't participate in a Jewish Pesach Feast (Haggadah) put on by a Synagogue that doesn't believe that Yeshua as Israel's Mashiach has already fulfilled the first three Feasts. WHY does the Rabbi and members allow a male non-Jew to be seated at a Seder table as a guest with legal Jews when he isn't a legal Jew?

    On the other hand is a Messianic Synagogue that's having a Jewish Pesach Feast (Haggadah) with the purpose of explaining the insightful allegory as it relates to the Lamb of G-d (Mashiach Yeshua). WHY wouldn't it be OK for the Messianic Synagogue to open their Seder Service to the public as is the case with the vast majority of Messianic Judaism Synagogues that generally believe Jew and non-Jew are one in Messiah Yeshua?
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    my two cents; The cup and the bread do not equate with the Passover meal. What Yeshua and his disciples did the night he was betrayed was not the Passover Seder. That was the following night. Therefore, the cup and the bread should be taken on Abib 14 and the Passover Seder on Abib 15. Since these are two different events, circumcision has nothing to do with taking the bread and the cup. Keep in mind that no one drank the blood of the Passover lamb in Exodus nor were the lamb's bones broken as we break matzah. Also, since there is no sacrificial lamb to be eaten for the Passover Seder, there should be no requirement of circumcision to celebrate the Seder. It is simply a memorial of the exodus from Egypt and, for MJs, it is rich with symbolism concerning Yeshua. All should be welcome, circumcised or not, to learn about Yeshua through celebrating a Messianic Seder.
     
  6. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Yes, because the Sanhedrin/Pharisees had advanced the timeline of the sacrificial lambs 18 hours to take place during the last 6 hours of the 14th. Thus, the roasted lambs weren't ready to eat (feast upon) until/into the beginning of the 15th.

    This thinking (last supper--pre-seder) just goes to show the confusion caused by the Sanhedrin when advancing the timeline of YHVHs Torah by 18 hours to satisfy their own tradition. This timeline may have been enacted at the beginning of the 2nd Temple period. It's as if they ignored Leviticus 23:5-6 in order to establish their own tradition for the sake of convenience.

    Leviticus 23:5-6 (JPS 1985)
    5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover offering to the LORD, (butchering the lambs)
    6 and on the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread. You shall eat unleavened bread for seven days.​

    The Israelites were kept in the dark when it came to reading the Torah passages themselves of Exodus 12:6, Numbers 9:3 and Leviticus 23:5-8, and the Pharisees liked it that way so they could establish their own law (traditions). For the same reasons the RCC for centruries didn't want the common man to read the Bible. Martin Luther caused quite a stir by challenging the Church's traditions.

    Leviticus 23:5 should be interpreted that the Passover offering was also eaten during the night at the beginning of Aviv/Nisan 14. However, because the Sanhedrin had changed the timeline the actual "Feast" (both the eating of the roasted lamb and eating the matzah took place on Aviv/Nisan 15 (Matthew 26:2, Mark 14:1, Luke 22:1). Would it have improved Yeshua's relations with the Pharisees had He tried to teach the Sanhedrin the correct timeline. Why rock the boat when for years the Jews had observed the tradition of the Sanhedrin. Quite the contrary (Matthew 23:3) or a Jew might find himself hanging from a cross if questioning the Sanhedrin's traditions.
     
  7. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    in order to leave egypt?
    perhaps.

    yet i was reminded of oil and wine and the generations of miracles after.
    “Keep the festival of matzah by eating matzah, as I ordered you, for seven days during the month of Aviv; for it was in the month of Aviv that you came out from Egypt.

    “Everything that is first from the womb is mine.


    tziporah singing at a well, daughters rejoicing over child birth.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    "Twilight" is not the correct translation of the Hebrew "ben ha-erebim" (between the evenings).

    The phrase in question appears eleven times in the Hebrew text. Five of those times pertain to the Passover.

    Ex.12:6 - "And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening ."

    Lev.23:5 - "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is YHWH's passover.

    Num.9:3 - "In the fourteenth day of this month, at even , ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it."

    Num.9:5 - "And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that Yahweh commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel."

    Num.9:11 - "The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs ."

    The context of these scriptures are not very helpful in determining the meaning of "Between the evenings" (in bold print). The remaining six verses, however, are quite helpful.

    Ex.16:12 - "I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am YHWH your Elohim."​

    The "flesh" the Israelites would eat "between the evenings" was quail (vs.13). The question is, if "between the evenings" means twilight, which is a period lasting approximately 40 minutes, how did the Israelites manage to catch, kill, clean, cook and eat the quail in that short time period? It is obvious that much more time is required to do all that. They may also have had to start fires to cook the quail. We shouldn't assume that they had fires ready in anticipation of the quail coming.

    Ex.29:39,41 is repeated in Num.28:4,8 so we need only look at Num.28:4,8 to understand the next four uses of "between the evenings."

    Num.28:4,8 - "The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at even ; And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even : as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it , a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto YHWH."​

    Both phrases in bold type are from the Hebrew "ben ha-erebim." These verses deal with the time of the evening sacrifice. Keep in mind that a Hebrew day ends at sunset.

    First, the historical testimony of Josephus places the evening sacrifice at "about the ninth hour" or approximately 3:00 p.m. (Antiquities 14.4.3). This agrees with his statement that the Passover lamb was sacrificed "between the ninth and the eleventh hour" (Wars 6.9.3). Two different sacrifices, both occurring at about the ninth hour and both fulfilling the command to sacrifice "between the evenings."

    Secondly, we have the clear meaning of two other Hebrew words to assure us of the meaning intended. The word "one" used in verse 4 is the Hebrew word "echad" which can also mean "first" as in Num. 29:1 and many other texts.

    Num.29:1a - "And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation;"​

    More importantly is the Hebrew word translated "other" in verse 8. It is "sheniy" meaning "double ie: second," according to Strong's Concordance. "Sheniy" is the most common Hebrew word for "second." If the "other" lamb, or more correctly, the "second" lamb, were sacrificed after sunset it would have been sacrificed on a new day making it the first lamb sacrificed that day. Both lambs had to be sacrificed the same day, the first one in the morning and the second one between the evenings or late in the day, but before sunset.

    That leaves us with one verse left, Exodus 30:8. Josephus says this was done at "sunsetting" (Antiquities 3.8.3). He does not say "sundown" or "sunset." This time period, in the Jewish culture, begins at noon. The sun begins setting at that time. It continues to set until it vanishes from sight beginning a new day.

    Exodus 30:8 - "And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even , he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before YHWH throughout your generations."​

    The Tabernacle in the wilderness was made out of animal skins which means they would not allow much light, if any, to enter the sanctuary. If Aaron waited until sundown to light the lamps, he would not have had any light to see what he was doing. This would especially be true when the moon was not full. Lighting the lamps before sunset would make more sense. Also, if Aaron had to light the lamps, burn incense and offer the evening sacrifice after sunset, when did he have time to offer the Passover sacrifice? Twilight only lasts about 30 minutes.

    Interestingly, Leviticus 23:3 uses the Hebrew word "ereb" concerning the time for lighting the lamps and 2 Chronicles 13:11 uses "ereb" for the time of the evening sacrifice. Therefore, ereb and ben ha-erebim are interchangeable as far as these times are concerned.

    Conclusion: The weightier evidence, both historical and scriptural, is clearly in favor of "between the evenings" meaning a time period before sunset.
     
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  9. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Wrong!

    ...
    "between the evenings" was originally interpreted in the Torah by Moses and the Israelites as the time between sunset and the beginning of night when no more daylight was reflected into the sky ... approximately 90 minutes ... or in other words twilight as several translations read when correctly understood. Just because the Sanhedrin turned at even into 6 hours of declining afternoon sun goes to show how they had corrupted the original meaning to satisfy their own tradition(law) and not the LORDs.

    The notion by the religious leaders that "between the evenings" means approx 6 hours of afternoon daylight during the 2nd Temple period is an example of doing their own thing.

    The Jerusalem Publication Society has it right considering that twilight DOESN'T mean 6 hours of afternoon daylight. The JPS 1985 is as excellent an English translation of the Tanach as currently available.

    Exodus 12:6 (JPS 1985)
    You shall keep watch over it until the fourteenth day of this month; and all the assembled congregation of the Israelites shall slaughter it at twilight.
    Leviticus 23:5 (JPS 1985)
    In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover offering to the LORD,
    Numbers 9:3 (JPS 1985)
    you shall offer it on the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, at its set time; you shall offer it in accordance with all its rules and rites.​

    Was Yeshua going to hold a conference for the Sanhedrin, Sadducees, Pharisees, scribes and elders to instruct them in the error of their own tradition possibly for the sake of convenience? NO, Yeshua kept his mouth shut knowing that to challenge their tradition would only bring more ridicule upon Himself.

    Matthew 23:3
    therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.​
     
  10. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    I guess I have a bit of a different take on the whole circumcized thing. IMHO, this stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of Acts 15.

    15:1 “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.

    If you set aside where you fall on the "what to do with the Gentiles" aspect of Acts 15 and focus on WHAT is being discussed it is a
    WHO CAN BE SAVED. I say this for a couple of reasons.

    #1 We have the disadvantage of reading this from a modern world perspective. What I mean by that, is that Gentiles can, were and are being saved in droves. A Gentile being saved is normative to us.

    At the time this is occurring such a thing was impossible. G-d had not made a covenant with anyone but Israel. No other people outside of Israel did G-d work through. The very concept of G-d "saving" the Goy was outside of Jewish thought.

    As a result, they naturally assumed that G-d saved the Jew and that the Goy had to become Jewish because G-d did not come to save the Goy. In fact, Yeshua told the woman with the blood issue :
    He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

    25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

    26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

    So it is natural for them to believe that the Goy could only come to salvation by FIRST converting and become an adopted son or daughter of Israel and THEN they could be saved.

    Now if we look at what the Torah says concerning the Alien and Sojourner.... there is 1 law for both the Jew and the Alien among you. So clearly you cannot eat of the Passover if you are uncircumcised.

    Not as a matter of salvation but rather as a matter of OBEDIENCE. IMO this is something every believer who considers himself messianic is going to have to work through... But I think it is VERY difficult to rewrite what Torah proclaims.

    Additionally, right after this and before Paul heads back out to minister to the nations, Paul takes Timothy to do what? Have him circumcised. Under the standing of Roman law, Timothy is Greek because his father was not jewish
     
  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I gave you Scripture with commentary and all you have for me is more translations supporting your view? I can give you many supporting my view, but that would be fruitless.

    Yeshua kept all holy days with the Jews who used the Pharisees calendar until Hillel changed it. Had the Jews done it wrong, then Yeshua sinned along with them. Since he was sinless, the calendar of his day was correct.
     
  12. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    One needs to consider the entire context of Acts 15:1-35. The teaching doctrine of the circumcision group from Judea was about who "cannot be saved" not about who cannot attend the Feasts of the LORD in Jerusalem. Is there any discussion in the Book of Acts or any of the other NT Books about whether or not non-Jewish Christians can or cannot attend the Feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread?

    There should be no fundamental misunderstanding of Acts 15:1-35, because the circumcision controversy doesn't mention anything about non-Jewish Christians attending or not attending any of the Feasts of the LORD in Jerusalem. Isn't it just assumed that non-Jewish Christians knew enough not to even try to attend any of the Jewish Feasts of the LORD in Jerusalem?

    Uncircumcised non-Jewish Christians from Antioch knew better than to even attempt to attend the Feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread in Jerusalem? And a Messianic Jew knew better than to invite a non-Jewish Christian to attend a Feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread in Jerusalem.
     
  13. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    I can not more strongly disagree.

    It amazes me when people set aside what scripture PLAINLY STATES.

    When you try and reframe the narrative in opposition to what is plainly stated then you can distort scripture to say whatever you want it to say.

    It plain says in verse 1 what the debate is about. Nothing you can say will change what scripture clearly states.
     
  14. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    You made the mistake of taking Acts 15:1 out of context thinking
    it is about the Feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread.
    This debate is NOT about non-Jewish Christians from Antioch that can't be saved unless they are circumcised. The context of Acts 15:1-35 mentions nothing about the Lord's Feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread, but rather about whether the non-Jewish Christians at Antioch cannot be saved without undergoing b’rit-milah in the manner prescribed by Moshe.

    Acts 15:1
    But some men came down from Y’hudah to Antioch and began teaching the brothers, “You can’t be saved unless you undergo b’rit-milah in the manner prescribed by Moshe.”

    The verse you should've chose pertaining to this Pesach debate is Numbers 9:14.

    Numbers 9:14
    If a foreigner is staying with you and wants to observe Pesach for Adonai, he is to do it according to the regulations and rules of Pesach — you are to have the same law for the foreigner as for the citizen of the land.’”
    In so many words circumcision is mandatory for a non-Jewish Christian to convert to Judaism if he wants to attend the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover.

    If you had read the last paragraph of my previous post (#32) you would've understood that a non-Jewish uncircumcised Christian wouldn't be welcome to attend the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover in Jerusalem.
    So before you fly off the handle again (#33) please read all of my previous post (#32) to understand that we agree that an uncircumcised male non-Jewish Christian from Antioch was not allowed to attend the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover.
     
  15. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    My apologies, I see we agree.

    I think that standard regarding Passover applies today.
     
  16. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    so perhaps being circumcised before leaving.

    when i hear of gates, i am reminded of forgiveness and the three gates spoken of by ezekiel in the vision.
    then there is the altar to leave a gift....

    If reconciled and remaining in the vine then a person enters with a whole tithe.

    of course then there is something well beyond that i have rarely heard about from even the most studious torah student.

    the silver and gold of the Miskhan and the Most Holy Place.

    so, many planks of gold
    so man foundations of silver
    so many bars.

    And yet no one wants to talk about how to place them appropriately.
     
  17. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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  18. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    So for as walking in prayer and the thre gates with seven steps.
    Forgiven 7 times?

    Then the LORD said, "Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush,

    Egypt the stranger and three gates?
    Yet if there is no cirmcision?
    The third generation of Edomites and Egyptians may enter the assembly of the LORD.

    I believe circumcision has to do with love your enemies.

    Even Peter denied The Holy One three times.

    Circumcision is a Blessing for father's to teach sons.
     
  19. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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  20. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    True,
    But I can't help but wonder about how whether or not moses was circumcised as a child and his Egyptian mother took him in regardless. Or whether he was circumcised later.
     
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