To atheists...

[lucaspa]

How about you let the atheists describe themselves?

LOL! Do we let Creation Science define itself? It does so saying there is no connection to any religious belief. Do we accept that? Sorry, sauce for the goose. You can define yourself as long as you do so honestly. When you make a definition that tries to hide the truth, then you lose the ability to define yourself. If the definition doesn't fit you, pick a label whose definition does.

Do I have faith that my computer operates without deity?

To the last question: YES! That's the whole point of Butler's claim. Your computer would stop working if God stopped continually sustaining the movement of electrons in it. You don't know Butler is wrong. You believe he is wrong. But that makes atheism a faith.

How does atheism entail a belief about evolution?

The same as the computer. It believes that all the processes involved in evolution operate in the absence of deity.

Atheists are under no obligation to explain natural laws. They can form beliefs if they wish, but it's certainly possible to accept the observations and consequences consistent with natural laws without attempting to explain why they work.

Not if you are saying that you know ultimate reality. You are saying that there is no deity. That inevitable conclusion from that is that the natural laws work by themselves without any supernatural component. Where's your data for that? What experiments can you point to where you know deity is absent and therefore the laws work just like they always have?

 

[Philosoft]

LOL! Do we let Creation Science define itself? It does so saying there is no connection to any religious belief. Do we accept that? Sorry, sauce for the goose. You can define yourself as long as you do so honestly. When you make a definition that tries to hide the truth, then you lose the ability to define yourself. If the definition doesn't fit you, pick a label whose definition does.

Completely irrelevant. The word "atheist" is quite capable of carrying the meaning, "one who holds no beliefs regarding gods." Many atheists already use it that way. There is no contradiction, absurdity or problem whatsoever with "atheist" being defined so. You seem to have some sort of objective standard in mind for semantics, which is, frankly, absurd.

To the last question: YES! That's the whole point of Butler's claim. Your computer would stop working if God stopped continually sustaining the movement of electrons in it. You don't know Butler is wrong. You believe he is wrong. But that makes atheism a faith.

Why would you expand the definition of "faith" so as to pointlessly encompass all these generic situations?

The same as the computer. It believes that all the processes involved in evolution operate in the absence of deity.

"Atheism" logically entails nothing regarding beliefs about evolution.

Not if you are saying that you know ultimate reality. You are saying that there is no deity. That inevitable conclusion from that is that the natural laws work by themselves without any supernatural component. Where's your data for that? What experiments can you point to where you know deity is absent and therefore the laws work just like they always have?

Can you demonstrate that the dichotomy you assume here actually obtains? Can you show there are only two possible, mutually exclusive belief systems about "ultimate reality"?

 

[Michali]

If you do not believe in a god(s) you are an atheist. That is all that word means. Now there are atheist humanist, atheist nihilists, atheist evolutionists. I guess you really gotta string out a bunch of titles to accurately describe yourself or someone else. But if you entail anything on just one out of assumption, then you've made a stereotypical mistake.

I am a male scott/greek/cherokee/mongol nerd/warrior theistic/christian/evolutionist/Biblical-non-literalist confused philosopher. You won't believe what level I'm at to be able to quadrupal class twice!

 

[ThePhoenix]

Completely irrelevant. The word "atheist" is quite capable of carrying the meaning, "one who holds no beliefs regarding gods." Many atheists already use it that way. There is no contradiction, absurdity or problem whatsoever with "atheist" being defined so. You seem to have some sort of objective standard in mind for semantics, which is, frankly, absurd.
Why would you expand the definition of "faith" so as to pointlessly encompass all these generic situations?
"Atheism" logically entails nothing regarding beliefs about evolution.
Can you demonstrate that the dichotomy you assume here actually obtains? Can you show there are only two possible, mutually exclusive belief systems about "ultimate reality"?

Because he's using the term faith to encompass ALL belief systems, including the belief that god does not exist. You, by stating god does not exist, are saying that you believe your computer operates without a deity. Me, I think that if God wanted my computer to stop working it would, and no tech support person on the planet could get it back up again. The point is that we both have FAITH that our opinions are valid.

 

[Philosoft]

Because he's using the term faith to encompass ALL belief systems, including the belief that god does not exist. You, by stating god does not exist, are saying that you believe your computer operates without a deity. Me, I think that if God wanted my computer to stop working it would, and no tech support person on the planet could get it back up again. The point is that we both have FAITH that our opinions are valid.

So as soon as someone makes up a word, gives it some semantic content and asserts its existence, to disbelieve in it requires "faith"? You guys are really reaching here.

 

[ThePhoenix]

So as soon as someone makes up a word, gives it some semantic content and asserts its existence, to disbelieve in it requires "faith"? You guys are really reaching here.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

You have no material evidence or logical proof that god does not exist. Therefore you have faith that god does not exist. Reaching how exactly?

 

[Philosoft]

You have no material evidence or logical proof that god does not exist. Therefore you have faith that god does not exist. Reaching how exactly?

Because you're telling me that anytime I contemplate some process without also considering God as part of that process, I am implicity engaging in "faith." This just seems absurd on its face.

 

[MartinM]

Nice attempt to change definitions. Atheism is the belief that deity(ies) does not exist

Cobblers. Atheism is the absence of theism. Hence, a-theism.

Notice the hidden statement of faith in this sentence: that "natural laws" operate without deity. That's the essential belief of atheism

This atheist makes no such statement. It's an ontological commitment, after all. I try to avoid those whenever possible...which is a large part of the reason I lack a belief in God.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Cobblers. Atheism is the absence of theism. Hence, a-theism.



This atheist makes no such statement. It's an ontological commitment, after all. I try to avoid those whenever possible...which is a large part of the reason I lack a belief in God.

The absence of theism is a belief that diety(ies) do not exist. How finely are we splitting hairs here?

Philosoph - nope, what we're saying is that your blanket statement that god can have no part in any process (because he doesn't exist) is a statement of faith.

 

[MartinM]

The absence of theism is a belief that diety(ies) do not exist. How finely are we splitting hairs here?

No, it isn't. Theism is the belief that god(s) exist. The absence of theism is no belief that god(s) exist. That does not imply a belief that no god(s) exist.

Look at it this way. The Higgs boson may or may not exist. The data is inconclusive either way. Given that, I do not believe it exists. According to you, I must therefore believe that it doesn't exist. That's clearly not neccesary. I may withold judgement. I lack a belief in the Higgs boson, just as I lack a belief in god(s). I actively disbelieve neither.

 

[Michali]

So what is the word for a belief that no god(s) exist? Antitheism?

 

[MartinM]

So what is the word for a belief that no god(s) exist? Antitheism?

Typically it's referred to as strong atheism, whereas my position is weak or, my preferred term, agnostic atheism.

 

[Revenant]

Who cares about semantics? Just say what you believe. eg. I personally am not convinced that any of the proposed gods exist.

 

[Philosoft]

Philosoph - nope, what we're saying is that your blanket statement that god can have no part in any process (because he doesn't exist) is a statement of faith.

Well, unless you can find a statement by me to that effect, we don't need to discuss this any further, as you and that strawman can take it from here.

 

[LorentzHA]

I believe in free beer for all students between 18 and 25.

Well that counts me out. 30's and already age discrimination!

 

[LorentzHA]

Hey,
I am just curious as to what the beliefs of any atheists out there are in regard to creation; how humans and their surroundings came to be created. I am going to try not to respond to any suggestions; I am just curious as to what the different theories are between atheists. Personally I believe in what the Bible says but I'd like to hear what others believe. It doesn't have to be long-winded - i just stated my belief in one sentence - but feel free to explain what and why in detail if you are so inclined.

~chip

Hi Chip,

I am not an atheist, I do "believe in" evolution since I have seen heaps of evidence for it. I have formally studied the basics of it and have held primitve skulls in my own hands, skulls that were obviously primitive humans. Everything evolves as needed to adapt to its surroundings note the 3 races on the planet and skin color variations to adapt to point of origins on the globe. If we all came from Adam and Eve and there was no evolution, well, then the Bible story begins to break down before it even begins, based on what we see and know to be true. If you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible and NOT evolution then how do you account for the 3 different races on the planet and a plethora different skin shading among those 3 races?

I do not discount the possibility of a God/s but I also do not shut my eyes to the observable and do not wish it would go away to coincide with an ancient collection of tribal stories.

 

[Jet Black]

Well that counts me out. 30's and already age discrimination!

hey I am an evil immoral atheist remember, I'm always open to bribes and corruption if you want free beer

 

[LorentzHA]

hey I am an evil immoral atheist remember, I'm always open to bribes and corruption if you want free beer

Hmmm, tempting, now I am beginning to question free will? Maybe Descarte' was initially right and there is an "Evil Genius" controlling us all, what if that "Evil Genius" is you, (Gulp)

Truthfully, I rarely drink anymore, but I put away more than my share of it in undergrad! If there was a party on campus I was usually there....Oh the 80's, how I miss them.....LOL

 

[LorentzHA]

JB- I just had a visual of you living in the part of The United States that I live in (Texas) , I think you would either go insane or pull your hair out. It is not uncommon for people here to absolve themselves from any type of desicion making or responsiblity/blame. If they have a desicion to make they say that they are "waiting to be led" or if they make a poor desicion or do harm to another they defer blame to Satan. This area is chocked full of Creationists posing as Christians.... Sometimes I just stare at people in utter disbelief.

 

[Jet Black]

Hmmm, tempting, now I am beginning to question free will? Maybe Descarte' was initially right and there is an "Evil Genius" controlling us all, what if that "Evil Genius" is you, (Gulp)

Truthfully, I rarely drink anymore, but I put away more than my share of it in undergrad! If there was a party on campus I was usually there....Oh the 80's, how I miss them.....LOL

same here only I miss the late nineties, or early noughties. you can have free orange juice/beverages of your choice