To all Mormons

[gort]

Mormonfriend,


Here is a link to one of Lewis Sperry Chafers' works....."Salvation". An excellent read. This is what Christians adhere to and believe. It is what the Bible teaches.


http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/lewis_chafer/salvation/index.html



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[Rescued One]

One must consider that in Christianity, they come up with different truths from the Bible that conflict, and have divided what once was the Body of Christ because of their different interpretations. That was the very confusion which caused Joseph Smith to ask God for himself.

When does truth conflict with truth? I've never heard that before! Do you really think that such a possibilty exists? Maybe you're as confused as Joseph Smith was.

Perhaps if Christians would pray with "true intent," about what is true in the Bible, they might become united Chritians as one Body.

But why would a LDS get online and say parts of the Bible aren't true? Should we be united in falsely believing that only parts of the Bible are true? Unity is great if it is unity in truth. Unity in following a false leader is not good.

In fact, the "oneness in all things" is the evidence necessary to show that a people pray for understanding with true intent.

Perhaps the belief in God's word would be a better measure.

John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[MormonFriend]

If we were all in the unity of the faith, why would this unity be spoken of as a future event?


Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

When we are not united in the faith, we can look to apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc. as spokespersons for God, until our faith matures to the point that we can hear the Spirit's voice as they do. That is in the process of perfecting the Saints.

In the ancient Church, shortly after the death of Christ, those who were called of God and duley anointed to minister for the edification of the body of Christ, were lost to the body. Since then the sound doctrines became the "winds of doctrine" and the children of the church were "tossed to and fro."

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 14)

Those who are called of God to speak for God, keep the church united as one body.

 

[MormonFriend]

Mormonfriend,


Here is a link to one of Lewis Sperry Chafers' works....."Salvation". An excellent read. This is what Christians adhere to and believe. It is what the Bible teaches.


http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/lewis_chafer/salvation/index.html



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Thank you, I have saved the whole book as a document and will give it a shot.

 

[MormonFriend]

In fact, the "oneness in all things" is the evidence necessary to show that a people pray for understanding with true intent.

Perhaps the belief in God's word would be a better measure.

John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Exactly my point! The Christian denominations did not believe the Word of God in "oneness." Hence they divided, contrary to the Word of God. Hence, their divisions became the work of man. Hence, the denominations were inspired by men, and not by the Spirit.

Here is how it should have happened.

Example:
The members of a church are divided on a doctrine. The Word of God says:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (New Testament | James1:5 - 6)

The members lack wisdom. They should pray together, and as individuals for the wisdom God promises. If they ask in faith, God will provide the answers, and they will be of one mind, agreeing on the answer God gives. Dividing is not the answer because it is already written in the Word of God not to divide.

So today we have multiple denominations that say: "OK, so we are divided, but we are one, and it's OK." No! It is not OK! Somewhere in the past, faith was lost to ask God for the answers and remain as one.

 

[MormonFriend]

What one must understand is that the Body of Christ is made up of all Christians. Claiming that Christianity "was once the body of Christ" is a simply a false claim. What is your evidence that Christians do not pray with "true intent?" Do you claim to know their intent and their heart?
............

The post I just made to Gwit offers the evidence you asked for.

 

[Abba]

In the ancient Church, shortly after the death of Christ, those who were called of God and duley anointed to minister for the edification of the body of Christ, were lost to the body. Since then the sound doctrines became the "winds of doctrine" and the children of the church were "tossed to and fro."

There is NO historical evidence whatsoever. No offense but neither is there any evidence that the early church was mormon.

The theory that the early church fell away from the truth is just a theory and has no historical evidence neither.

Exactly my point! The Christian denominations did not believe the Word of God in "oneness." Hence they divided, contrary to the Word of God. Hence, their divisions became the work of man. Hence, the denominations were inspired by men, and not by the Spirit.

Well that is part of the reason why I belong to the Catholic Church.

 

[Chaucer]

There is NO historical evidence whatsoever. No offense but neither is there any evidence that the early church was mormon.

The theory that the early church fell away from the truth is just a theory and has no historical evidence neither.

Abba,

Of course the early church was not Mormon. Neither was it Methodist, Lutheran or Roman Catholic. I don't think I have I have ever seen someone try to claim that it was.

But, to claim that there is no historical evidence for a falling away is simply and factually untrue -- pagan persucution, Roman opposition, adoption of idolatry, goverment instituitionlization of the faith, corruption through Hellenistic philosophy, corruption in the clergy, sibellianinism, arianism, admixture of gnosticism, changes in doctrine and church government, indulgences...

Now, you or I and others may disagree about the effects and implications of those things; Mormons among other would say that they constitute complete falling away, Protestants would say that they constitute a partial falling away, and Roman Catholics would say no falling away occurred in spite of them, but no one can factually claim that they didn't exist.

 

[Rescued One]

Exactly my point! The Christian denominations did not believe the Word of God in "oneness." Hence they divided, contrary to the Word of God. Hence, their divisions became the work of man. Hence, the denominations were inspired by men, and not by the Spirit.

We still have the Word of God, Mormons still doubt the veracity of it, cults still demand perfect unity in false teachings and excommunicate those who defy the false teachings.

Thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee.

Thy word is truth.

Add thou not unto his word lest he reprove thee and thou be found a liar.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

Here is how it should have happened.

Example:
The members of a church are divided on a doctrine. The Word of God says:
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (New Testament | James1:5 - 6)

And which of us Christians are you accusing of not asking God for wisdom, or not asking him properly?

The members lack wisdom. They should pray together, and as individuals for the wisdom God promises. If they ask in faith, God will provide the answers, and they will be of one mind, agreeing on the answer God gives. Dividing is not the answer because it is already written in the Word of God not to divide.

Then why would Joseph Smith divide from the Christians in his area of New York? Being self-centered and claiming to be God's spokesman for truth does not make it so.

So today we have multiple denominations that say: "OK, so we are divided, but we are one, and it's OK." No! It is not OK! Somewhere in the past, faith was lost to ask God for the answers and remain as one.

We are not one unless we agree with the Word of God and worship the One Triune God! Those who deny the fundamental truths are outside the body of Christ. You cannot call heretics Christians merely because they claim to be Christians.

 

[skylark1]

What one must understand is that the Body of Christ is made up of all Christians. Claiming that Christianity "was once the body of Christ" is a simply a false claim. What is your evidence that Christians do not pray with "true intent?" Do you claim to know their intent and their heart?

The post I just made to Gwit offers the evidence you asked for.

Your post does NOT show that the body of Christ no longer consists of all Christians. No matter how much you attempt to claim otherwise, we are part of the body of Christ.

 

[skylark1]

OP:

How do you know that Joseph Smith was a real prophet? Couldnt he have been just making things up?

Several LDS have claimed that they know this from a combination of the witness of the Spirirt, and from study. Strictly from study, what leads you to believe that Joseph Smith could not have "just been making things up?"

 

[Chaucer]

We still have the Word of God, Mormons still doubt the veracity of it, cults still demand perfect unity in false teachings and excommunicate those who defy the false teachings.

By Word I assume you mean Bible. I think you are making an unfair point. Is there any Mormon here who doesn't believe the Bible?

Your next point is also unfair. By cult I assume you mean Mormonism of JWs or something. Is there any member of such a group that believe their church will excommunicate them for defying false teaching?

I doubt it.

Being self-centered and claiming to be God's spokesman for truth does not make it so.

Nor does you disagreeing make your position right. Peter or Paul or Isaiah acting as if they were speaking for God did not make them right either. None of them maintianed "I speak for God therefore I am right" You are reducing their mission (or Smith's mission) to a strawman line of reasoning. (don't you hate it when people of message boards saw strawman?)

 

[Chaucer]

How do you know that Joseph Smith was a real prophet? Couldnt he have been just making things up?

OP:

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Several LDS have claimed that they know this from a combination of the witness of the Spirirt, and from study. Strictly from study, what leads you to believe that Joseph Smith could not have "just been making things up?"

...and I maintain that they know just like a traditional Christian knows what they know.

1. They learned it from their upbringing or another person and accepted it dogmatically

or

2. They studied it out, put the teaching into practice, established a connection to God and interpreted that connection as a confirmation of truth.

Maybe a better question should be:

What are the evidences that:

Joseph Smith
John the Baptist
Haggai
Obadiah
Pope Sergius
Pope Leo VIII
Martin Luther
or Benny Hinn

...spoke for God with God endorsement?

 

[skylark1]

How do you know that Joseph Smith was a real prophet? Couldnt he have been just making things up?



...and I maintain that they know just like a traditional Christian knows what they know.

1. They learned it from their upbringing or another person and accepted it dogmatically

or

2. They studied it out, put the teaching into practice, established a connection to God and interpreted that connection as a confirmation of truth.


Maybe a better question should be:

What are the evidences that:

Joseph Smith
John the Baptist
Haggai
Obadiah
Pope Sergius
Pope Leo VIII
Martin Luther
or Benny Hinn

...spoke for God with God endorsement?

Just trying to get this discussion back on topic.

John the Baptist, Haggai, Obadiah, Pope Sergius, Pope Leo VIII, Martin Luther, and Benny Hinn are not the topic of this thread. The OP asked about Joseph Smith.

I was hoping that someone who is LDS could explain specifically what in their study has led them to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the BOM could not have been a book of 19th century fiction.

 

[MormonFriend]

So, actually we have no way of knowing who was "more righteous" than another. Think about the justice and equity of this. You proposed that God does not show favoritism. The doctrine that we made these choices ourselves negates favoritism on God's part. Yet in Christianity, we were all created from nothing, where everything that we are is the result of what God made us to be. Now that breeds "favoritism."

God gave us free will. He did not create robots. We have discussed this before, and I don't want to go off on that tangent in this discussion.

Sorry, it is more than a tangent. The fact that we were not created from nothing is a major supporting truth of our discussion.

I agree that God did not create robots. That is why the concept of creation exnihilo cannot be. We discussed this before, true. But I sure received no input which convinced me that in Christianity God did not create robots. Again, "we were all created from nothing, where everything that we are is the result of what God made us to be. Now that breeds "favoritism." This doctrine is impossible. It is a sure evidence, one of many, that an apostasy did occur.

What part of my statement is not true? Is everything we are the result of what God made us to be? Free will is the same for everyone. How we use it differently is the manifestation that we are different. Who made us different?

Adding an edit. I see you are wanting to stay with the OP. This is part of my reasoning, of which I know by the Holy Ghost, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. There was an apostasy. God only works through prophets. To restore what was lost would require a prophet.

 

[skylark1]

Sorry, it is more than a tangent. The fact that we were not created from nothing is a major supporting truth of our discussion.

I agree that God did not create robots. That is why the concept of creation exnihilo cannot be. We discussed this before, true. But I sure received no input which convinced me that in Christianity God did not create robots. Again, "we were all created from nothing, where everything that we are is the result of what God made us to be. Now that breeds "favoritism." This doctrine is impossible. It is a sure evidence, one of many, that an apostasy did occur.

What part of my statement is not true? Is everything we are the result of what God made us to be? Free will is the same for everyone. How we use it differently is the manifestation that we are different. Who made us different?

MormonFriend,

Why don't you start a new thread to discuss this? I will reply to you there. It is completely off topic. The OP post asked how you know that Jospeph Smith was a prophet, and how you know that he didn't "make it all up."

Care to reply to my last post about what specifically that you have studied has led you to believe that the BOM is true?

 

[MormonFriend]

OP:

[/color][/font]

Several LDS have claimed that they know this from a combination of the witness of the Spirirt, and from study. Strictly from study, what leads you to believe that Joseph Smith could not have "just been making things up?"

This perhaps is the key issue. "Strictly from study", no one can believe, or know that Joseph Smith's work was of God. The things of God can only be understood by the Spirit of God. Without the assistance of the Spirit of God, people come up with their own conclusions, which is why there are multiple denominations today in Christianity. This is so basic and obvious, I cannot comprehend why so many avoid this fact.

Please seek the Spirit's guidance in knowing all truth, wherever it is to be found. You cannot hold that all Christian denominations are indwelled with the Spirit when their foundation is from dividing from the root, especially over differences of understanding doctrine. The division is contrary to the Word of God, and the Spirit will not condone that. Any spirit that says divisions are acceptable is a false Spirit, by the standard which the Word of God establishes. If that is the spirit that posesses your heart and mind, then surely it will tell you other things that are false. You are saying my beliefs are false. Until you can reconcile the issue within yourself, and what is right about the divisions in Christianity, you are not in any condition to advise me of truth vs. error.

Again the key issue here is seeking the influence and guidance of the Spirit's voice. Those that hear and follow His voice will be one in all things.

 

[MormonFriend]

MormonFriend,

Why don't you start a new thread to discuss this? I will reply to you there. It is completely off topic. The OP post asked how you know that Jospeph Smith was a prophet, and how you know that he didn't "make it all up."

Care to reply to my last post about what specifically that you have studied has led you to believe that the BOM is true?

It appears you read my post before I edited it. I stated at the end:

Adding an edit. I see you are wanting to stay with the OP. This is part of my reasoning, of which I know by the Holy Ghost, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. There was an apostasy. God only works through prophets. To restore what was lost would require a prophet.

 

[Rescued One]

By Word I assume you mean Bible. I think you are making an unfair point. Is there any Mormon here who doesn't believe the Bible?

Obviously, many LDS do not believe it in it's entirety:

One must consider that in Christianity, they come up with different truths from the Bible that conflict, and have divided what once was the Body of Christ because of their different interpretations. That was the very confusion which caused Joseph Smith to ask God for himself.

Perhaps if Christians would pray with "true intent," about what is true in the Bible, they might become united Chritians as one Body.

Your next point is also unfair. By cult I assume you mean Mormonism of JWs or something. Is there any member of such a group that believe their church will excommunicate them for defying false teaching?

Yes, you can be (or at least could have been) excommunicated from the LDS church for not believing it's false doctrines.

Nor does you disagreeing make your position right. Peter or Paul or Isaiah acting as if they were speaking for God did not make them right either. None of them maintianed "I speak for God therefore I am right" You are reducing their mission (or Smith's mission) to a strawman line of reasoning. (don't you hate it when people of message boards saw strawman?)

I'm not bothered by your accusation of my using a strawman argument. I said, "Being self-centered and claiming to be God's spokesman for truth does not make it so." I did not use that to refute anyone's argument; I was merely pointing out a fact that may have been overlooked.

 

[Rescued One]

Adding an edit. I see you are wanting to stay with the OP. This is part of my reasoning, of which I know by the Holy Ghost, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. There was an apostasy. God only works through prophets. To restore what was lost would require a prophet.

Many of us know that Mormonism is false by the power of the Holy Spirit Who leads us into all truth. We also know by comparing LDS teachings to the Bible. God is not the author of the sort of confusion found in Mormonism.