To all Mormons

[Visage of Glory]

So Mormonism, not Christianity, creates the problem?

What problem are you refering to? That Satan and others have never had the chance for salvation? No, they did in the first estate.

 

[fatboys]

There is no need for baptism for the dead because the truth of God is revealed to ALL man through His creation. Like the Bible says, we have this life to accept or reject the Lord's free gift to us. God reveals himself to all man. Baptism for the dead is not a godly practice. There is ONE place in the Bible where it is mentioned and the people who were practicing it were not even included in the group of believers.

Every man is WITHOUT excuse. God says in His holy Word that He reveals himself to all man. Of course to believe this, you have to believe that the Word of God is really the Word of God..... which I DO.

Frankie

FB: Other than once saved always saved, this is the biggest cop out mainstream christians throw out. What you are saying is that it is not necessary to believe in Christ to be saved. Yet in order to be saved you have to believe in Christ. So how can a person who has never heard of Christ be saved? Doesn't he first have to have faith in Christ?. Isn't there only one way to God? That is through faith in Jesus Christ. How does a dead man show faith in Christ? How can a dead man follow the teachings of Christ? You can not explain this, and so you say well if the person followed God, not hearing of Christ, then he is saved. Rubbish. You are shooting yourself in the foot. What you are doing is making God a respector of persons. In that those who did good and not hearing Christ still make it, and those who hear of Christ have more to live up to because they have heard of Christ. Making the playing field not fair. God is fair. The only way to make if fair is for them to be taught the gospel before the resurrection and judgement. That is the only fair way.

 

[Rescued One]

We believe intelligences are eternal, no beginning. They, ... we were not programmed and that is my point.

Your point? Your point is what? Is it that these intelligences make different choices? We know that people make different choices. Are they programmed that way or do they really have a choice? What in the world does a person's choice have to do with creation ex nihilio? People have free will. They don't lean a certain way because of a pre-existant intelligence inside them! What makes you think that a creature who was made from the dust of the earth is either good or bad depending on how God made them?

[bible]Genesis 1:31[/bible]

[bible]Genesis 6:5-7[/bible]

 

[Rescued One]

FB: Other than once saved always saved, this is the biggest cop out mainstream christians throw out. What you are saying is that it is not necessary to believe in Christ to be saved. Yet in order to be saved you have to believe in Christ. So how can a person who has never heard of Christ be saved? Doesn't he first have to have faith in Christ?. Isn't there only one way to God? That is through faith in Jesus Christ.

There is only one way to God. God told us that if we seek Him we will find Him. Was He lying? Are some people unable to seek Him? Do you tie God's hands, so to speak, and say He can not bring the Gospel to those who want it? Did it ever occur to anyone that those who never heard the message never wanted it? God is the One Who is omniscient. He is omnipotent. He will go to those who seek Him. Whatever the answer is, it is a just one. God is in control; He knows what He's doing. That doesn't mean we know all the details of how He works things out.

God is fair. The only way to make if fair is for them to be taught the gospel before the resurrection and judgement. That is the only fair way.

Perhaps God knows things that you don't know.

 

[Frankie]

FB: Other than once saved always saved, this is the biggest cop out mainstream christians throw out. What you are saying is that it is not necessary to believe in Christ to be saved. Yet in order to be saved you have to believe in Christ. So how can a person who has never heard of Christ be saved? Doesn't he first have to have faith in Christ?. Isn't there only one way to God? That is through faith in Jesus Christ. How does a dead man show faith in Christ? How can a dead man follow the teachings of Christ? You can not explain this, and so you say well if the person followed God, not hearing of Christ, then he is saved. Rubbish. You are shooting yourself in the foot. What you are doing is making God a respector of persons. In that those who did good and not hearing Christ still make it, and those who hear of Christ have more to live up to because they have heard of Christ. Making the playing field not fair. God is fair. The only way to make if fair is for them to be taught the gospel before the resurrection and judgement. That is the only fair way.

NO, it is not a cop out, it is what the Word of God says and I believe it. God Himself said that no man is without excuse because He has revealed himself through His creation to ALL man. If you want to call what He, himself says, "rubbish", feel free but I however believe what he says and will not call it "rubbish". I will stick with what the Word of God actually says, rather than what you think is fair.

P.S. I don't appreciate you stating that I said something different than what I actually said. Please do not speak for me as I am quite able of speaking for myself, which is just what I did.

 

[Rescued One]

Until you make more sense in your interpretation and understanding of the true character of God then I will believe you are making God finite. In all the actions of God, in our very existance, it is one mistake after another. Your finite God seems to be always trying to correct things. For Adam fell. Adam was not suppose to fall, but he did. So God has to correct that. God created evil. God was not suppose to create evil, but now he has to work against his own creation. To the point that in the end the evil will be destroyed. But then evil was created by God by mistake. This makes God finite.

Why do you accuse God of making mistakes? Do you know more than He knows?

Have you heard of free will? Adam made the mistake, not God. God knew that He was going to send His Son to die for our sins. The crucifixion was not a mistake.

No your problem is trying to make square pegs fit in round holes. You can not explain why a truely complete God wanted pleasure. And I have studied, prayed anad fasted. I am on the right track. I am saved. I will be married to my wife for ever. I will inherit the kingdom of God, and be like him.

We don't have to explain why God finds pleasure in us. We have to believe that is why He created us. I'm sorry you're having difficulty with that. Are you so wrapped up in seeking your own pleasure that you can't focus on God instead of yourself?

[bible]Revelation 4:11[/bible]

Should we remove Revelation 4: 11 from our Bibles?


Why do you think you are on the right track when your beliefs contradict the Bible?

[bible]Matthew 22:30[/bible]

If you go to heaven, you will be as an angel of God. Angels have no spouses.

Should we change Matthew 22:30 to say "unless you are married for time and eternity in my holy temple?"

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee.

 

[RufustheRed]

FB: God once being a man does not make him finite. And as for you comprehending God, you have stated that you know the true character of God over what I believe.

Please don't put words into my writing. I said that NO ONE could fully know the nature of God. Also, where did I say that I "know the true character of God over what I [you] believe?" I said that you were leaving out many of the attributes of God.

You are wrong.

Again, an opinion based on what? You being LDS and I'm not?

I believe that God has always been God, and that he is our parent.

I, too, believe that God has always been God and that He is my Father, through adoption.

We are his children.

Is everyone a child of God or only those valient ones from the pre-mortal world of Mr. Smith?

And like any parent wants for us the best. And what could that best be?

You assume too much. You assume that every parent wants the best for their children which is a false statement. I know what I want for my children and that is forgiveness for my lack of parenting skills (no, I wasn't a child molester) and foremost, to love God with every fibre of their being so that they can spend eternity with God.

Until you make more sense in your interpretation and understanding of the true character of God then I will believe you are making God finite.

Again, my apologies for your lack of comprehension regarding my post. That being said, what you believe of my theology has no significance or power in those beliefs. I DO know that once I tried to believe as you do, but I was delivered from that henotheistic system.

In all the actions of God, in our very existance, it is one mistake after another.

This is the clearest statement I have ever heard regarding the FACT that you worship another diety than Almighty God. He doesn't, didn't, nor won't make mistakes. Man (anthropos) makes mistakes, not God.

Your finite God seems to be always trying to correct things.

Do you mean like convincing the lost sheep that there was need of a 19th century "restoration?"

For Adam fell. Adam was not suppose to fall, but he did. So God has to correct that. God created evil. God was not suppose to create evil, but now he has to work against his own creation. To the point that in the end the evil will be destroyed. But then evil was created by God by mistake. This makes God finite.

Amazing! When I was LDS, we believed in free will. Now you are saying it was (is) a mistake? You presume to know what God's perfect plan for His creation is. If Adam had to "fall" (upwards, wasn't it?) then don't you believe it was necessary for procreation? Sounds like even the LDS have an answer for that. I don't agree with the concept, but you do have an answer, don't you?

No your problem is trying to make square pegs fit in round holes.

My problem, as you call it, has nothing to do with geometry. It has to do with wanting to worship more everyday, for it is God who adopted me into His family and gave me eternal/everlasting life.

You can not explain why a truely complete God wanted pleasure.

Don't need to. That's what the Bible said. I don't need to know why, only that He does.

And I have studied, prayed anad fasted. I am on the right track.

Interesting. I did the same thing and got off that "right" track because of where the train was going. I then got on correct track with the destination of where God is.

I am saved.

Do you know, beyond a shadow of any doubt, that if you were to die this afternoon, you will dwell with God forever?

I will be married to my wife for ever.

According to Jesus Christ, you do err in your understanding of the scriptures.

I will inherit the kingdom of God, and be like him.

I hope that you have done enough to make it. Jesus did it for me.

Huh?

I shall remind you of what was said to evoke the "Huh?" response.

I said, "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want..."

The you said, "He is everyones shepherd, not just yours."

To which I replied, "I didn't mean to be exclusive in quoting from the Psalms. I didn't realize that you felt offended by the words of the Bible. Perhaps you should take that up with God, also."

You replied with, "Huh?"

Sven

 

[Rescued One]

So the fate of our salvation depends on where, and to whom we are born? We has no choice in that either!

Ain't it a shame that God had a great plan and all you want to do is gripe about it?

God is omniscient.

God is omnipotent.

God is omnipresent.

Is there anything too difficult for Him?

Now if you think it makes no difference what parents you have, why do you teach your children about God? Does that also make no difference? Does the Mormon god select children's parents or does he just tell the pre-existant spirits to go inhabit a body of their choosing? Or is it all by chance(wherever the spirit happens to land)?

If it makes no difference what influences we have on our lives, why should a bishop set any kind of example to the flock?

Why let your light shine before men? It only affects the good intelligences, right?

 

[Rescued One]

He is everyones shepherd, not just yours.

A shepherd has a flock. Are you saying that some of His flock are thieves and robbers? Or are they not of His flock?

[bible]John 10:1[/bible]

[bible]John 10:14[/bible]

 

[fatboys]

A shepherd has a flock. Are you saying that some of His flock are thieves and robbers? Or are they not of His flock?

[bible]John 10:1[/bible]

[bible]John 10:14[/bible]

FB: Was the theif on the Cross of his flock?

 

[gort]

FB partial quote:

The only way to make if fair is for them to be taught the gospel before the resurrection and judgement. That is the only fair way.

FB, you should listen to these posts by Frankie, GWIT und Sven. Some very good understandings here. Straight from the Bible.

There is only one way. Gods way. A little Trust, Faith and Hope in HIm goes very far. Very far, indeed. Otherwise the onus is on you, to proxy baptize every man, woman and child that has died.

And you better not miss one of them. Nary a one.


<><

 

[fatboys]

Please don't put words into my writing. I said that NO ONE could fully know the nature of God. Also, where did I say that I "know the true character of God over what I [you] believe?" I said that you were leaving out many of the attributes of God.

FB: I put no words in your mouth. I asked you believe that you comprehend God over what I comprehend God. Did not say you knew all there was about God.

Again, an opinion based on what? You being LDS and I'm not?

FB: So

I, too, believe that God has always been God and that He is my Father, through adoption.

FB: He is literally my Heavenly Father. See where a small amount of restored truth can mean a whole lot more?

Is everyone a child of God or only those valient ones from the pre-mortal world of Mr. Smith?

FB: Not sure where you are going with this. Everyone is a child of God whether or not they were valient or not.

You assume too much. You assume that every parent wants the best for their children which is a false statement. I know what I want for my children and that is forgiveness for my lack of parenting skills (no, I wasn't a child molester) and foremost, to love God with every fibre of their being so that they can spend eternity with God.

FB: Why on earth would you think I thought you were a child molester because of learning how to be a parent? I am stumped at this. And a good parent wants what is best for their children, and I can not think of a greater parent than Heavenly Father.

Again, my apologies for your lack of comprehension regarding my post. That being said, what you believe of my theology has no significance or power in those beliefs. I DO know that once I tried to believe as you do, but I was delivered from that henotheistic system.

FB: Where much is given, much is expected. Some just are not ready to do what it takes.

This is the clearest statement I have ever heard regarding the FACT that you worship another diety than Almighty God. He doesn't, didn't, nor won't make mistakes. Man (anthropos) makes mistakes, not God.

FB: You did not get my point. Your whole primus of the fall is based on God making a mistake, and then having to correct it. Yes Adam transgressed, but since the perfect all powerful and all knowing God intended for Adam to not transgress, God made a mistake. Because of the mistake, God had to come up with a plan to redeem us. That is the point I am making. Now I don't believe God made a mistake, but that it was God's plan and what has happened or will happen is all part of God's true intent.

Do you mean like convincing the lost sheep that there was need of a 19th century "restoration?"

FB: The truth was lost during the time of Moses, and Moses tried to restore it. Israel was not ready and had to live the lower law. From that time to the time of Christ the higher law had been obscure to those following the law. Christ restored the higher law that was lived from Adam to the time it was lost to Israel. Now like Israel the world was not ready to recieve this higher law, only a few ever accepted it and evil men killed those who held authority from God off. That was the need of a restoration. So the lost sheep can prepare for the second coming.

Amazing! When I was LDS, we believed in free will. Now you are saying it was (is) a mistake? You presume to know what God's perfect plan for His creation is. If Adam had to "fall" (upwards, wasn't it?) then don't you believe it was necessary for procreation? Sounds like even the LDS have an answer for that. I don't agree with the concept, but you do have an answer, don't you?

FB: If God was all powerful as you believe, he could have created a perfect being that would have followed all the laws perfectly. And still have free will. But their desires would be to follow God always, everytime. That does not make them a robot, or without freedom to choose, just a perfect being which would make sense since God can not create anything but perfection.

Now Adam was in the Garden. God gave him two commandents. One was to mulitply and replenish the earth and the other was not to partake of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. Since Adam had no knowledge of Good and Evil, it would logically seem that they were innocent, or like a little child when it comes to mature reasoning and wisdom. God told them that if the even touch the fruit they would die. If you told someone that had no knowledge of death, never experienced, never knew what it was. How would they know what death was. I remember the first time I had one of my parents die. I had been to many funerals in my day, but you really don't understand a lose until you experience a loss. Now days I have more compassion and empathy. I had compassion before, but until you go through it you just really don't know.

So here is a man that knows no difference between Good or Evil, no knowledge of what it is like to be tempted or even understand the consequences for choosing wrong. If there is no understanding of a law, then there can be no sin. That is not to say that disobedience did not take place. It did. But not a sin. All justice sees is disobedience. Because of disobedience sin was brought into the world. But it was brought into the world without sin. Just disobedience. Justice see's knowingly disobeying and unknowing disobedience as the same. Disobedience. As I have said before, sin is a transgression, but not all transgressions are sins. If we transgress the law without fully knowing the law and understanding the consequences, then it is not a sin. Adam transgressed the law, not knowing good from Evil. Once he partook of the tree of knowledge, God said that Adam had become as one of them. So when Satan said that they could become like the Father he was not lying. The lie was that they would not die. But they did not even understand that.

My problem, as you call it, has nothing to do with geometry. It has to do with wanting to worship more everyday, for it is God who adopted me into His family and gave me eternal/everlasting life.

FB: You leave the family of God by not following what he has asked of us. IF we choose our own desires over that of God. The adoption is what Christ does for us as we follow his commandments. We become his. But we are always the Fathers's.

Don't need to. That's what the Bible said. I don't need to know why, only that He does.

FB: So a complete God has wants needs and desires? Please explain this.

Interesting. I did the same thing and got off that "right" track because of where the train was going. I then got on correct track with the destination of where God is.

FB: I tell you what, if you can explain how you know you are more correct than I am, I will get on your track. I have fasted prayed and studied. There is no doubt that I am on the right track. But if you can give me more than what I have, I would change. I am always open to more knowledge.



[

 

[Rescued One]

He is literally my Heavenly Father. See where a small amount of restored truth can mean a whole lot more?

What you say is disgusting. It is a disgusting lie.

Everyone is a child of God whether or not they were valient or not.

I agree that pre-existence has nothing to do with it; but some are of their father the devil, and some become children of God. We are not all one family.

Romans 9
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

John 8
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

 

[RufustheRed]

FB: Was the theif on the Cross of his flock?

What's your point about the theif [sic]?

Sven

 

[Chaucer]

...we know that God's Word says that He has revealled himself and that no man is without excuse, so we know that God is able and has revealed himself to all man so they can accept or reject the Lord.

Frankie

I think it really stretches credulity to the breaking point to think that God's Word was revealed to the Amazonian, Achuar Indians of, oh 1477 CE.

 

[Chaucer]

What's your point about the theif [sic]?

Sven

Good eye Sven. Do you think he feels sufficiently embarrasseded?

 

[Chaucer]

What you say is disgusting. It is a disgusting lie.

Besides not getting what you think is digusting, why do you have to call someone a liar just because you have a different theological interpretation than they do? Doing that is intend to shut down debate, which is contrary to what we all are trying to do here.

 

[gort]

Chaucer quote:

I think it really stretches credulity to the breaking point to think that God's Word was revealed to the Amazonian, Achuar Indians of, oh 1477 CE.

Do you understand that this is spoken of in the Bible? No, not the Achuar Indians, but what God has revealed to man about creation? Your remarks seem not to promote debate, which is what we seem to try to do.

For fatboys to say that he is the literal child of God is disgusting, just as the promotion of G-d having sexual relations with Mary. And this spirit children stuff.

<><

 

[Chaucer]

Do you understand that this is spoken of in the Bible? No, not the Achuar Indians, but what God has revealed to man about creation? Your remarks seem not to promote debate, which is what we seem to try to do.

Leaving the Bible out of it for a minute... it stretches crudulity past breaking to believe that God's Word found it's way into the Amazon basin 600 years ago. You know anthopologist can check these things.

For fatboys to say that he is the literal child of God is disgusting, just as the promotion of G-d having sexual relations with Mary. And this spirit children stuff.

Oh give everybody a giant break. We ALL know that fatboy is saying anything about sexual relations. You're saying that, not fatboy.

<><[/QUOTE]

 

[gort]

Chaucer:

Leaving the Bible out of it for a minute...

How does one do that when we are talking about God?

.....it stretches crudulity past breaking to believe that God's Word found it's way into the Amazon basin 600 years ago. You know anthopologist can check these things.

And we're not talking about His Word, the topic is what God has revealed to man in his creations.

Oh give everybody a giant break. We ALL know that fatboy is saying anything about sexual relations. You're saying that, not fatboy

It has been implied .....spirit children, pre-mortal existence, born of a "heavenly father, and heavenly mother". Implied, yet refuted, under the guise of "not official doctrine". A fun game for some, and not so fun for others.

<><