Tithing to crooked churches

[awitch]

You misunderstood the response you got to your question.

That response speaks of what God thinks of the giver (who, in this case, is the victim).

I just kind of expected that the person being duped would not be held accountable.
But for all the times I've been told I was going to hell and/or was duped by Satan, I wonder why God doesn't punish you for being duped by people and does if you're duped by the devil. I suppose that's for another thread, though.

 

[Hank77]

I'm not pretending because I am genuinely asking for theological views on tithing. My mother believes in Christianity and believes in tithing, so I want to understand the theological views.

I think the inquiry of the OP is, at least in part, is the tithe required in the NT church?

I don't believe it is. Even the Jews today do not tithe 10% to the synagogue because they actually understand the OT tithe. These pastors and evangelist who use the OT to entice people to give the tithe by saying they will be bless 100 fold and/or who frighten people into giving it saying that God will not bless them if they don't are at best fooled themselves and at worst are out right thieves and liars.

 

[RDKirk]

I think the inquiry of the OP is, at least in part, is the tithe required in the NT church?

I don't believe it is. Even the Jews today do not tithe 10% to the synagogue because they actually understand the OT tithe.

This is an important point. Jews today do not "tithe."

That's because they actually know what the Law says (and the Law is extremely detailed about tithing), and they know that under today's circumstances, they can't obey the Law on tithing.

So Jews have not just made up something and called it "tithing." They admit, "We ain't tithing" and pray for forgiveness for not doing what was commanded.

What Christian churches call "tithing" is totally pulled out of thin air. No such practice is given in scripture. God described the practice of "tithing" in very precise terms, and He never described anything different and called it "tithing."

God never changed His OT definition of the tithe. Nowhere does Jesus ever say, "Moses commanded you to tithe in that way, but I tell you to tithe in this way...."

It should be remembered that during the writing of the New Testament, Jews were still doing OT tithing in Jerusalem and the Church was using the OT as scripture. If Peter or Paul or John had ever said, "We must tithe," that would have been the OT practice that was still going on. So they never said "tithe," nor did they ever describe a practice for the Church anything like it.

What they did practice (with plenty of NT witness) was giving until everyone's needs were met.

 

[Hank77]

But to make it a condition of church membership,

My friend attends such a church. In order for children to have access to certain functions the parents must sign a contract saying that they will give 10% of their gross income. It is the same for adults.
If one doesn't they are considered a guest even if they faithfully give 10% as a contribution.
They financially operate more like a country club than a NT church in my opinion.

 

[Hank77]

So Jews have not just made up something and called it "tithing." They admit, "We ain't tithing" and pray for forgiveness for not doing what was commanded.

Why would they need to be forgiven? There is no temple, no high priest, no Levites, no established nation, no theocracy. They actually pay for the needs of the synagogue, their sons Torah teaching is paid, and they give to charities. This may be 10% or more. I see absolutely no reason that they need to be forgiven. I have never heard or read that any Jew prays for forgiveness in their giving. That is just bizarre.

It should be remembered that during the writing of the New Testament, Jews were still doing OT tithing in Jerusalem and the Church was using the OT as scripture. If Peter or Paul or John had ever said, "We must tithe," that would have been the OT practice that was still going on. So they never said "tithe," nor did they ever describe a practice for the Church anything like it.

I agree.

What they did practice (with plenty of NT witness) was giving until everyone's needs were met.

Paul said to not muzzle the ox while he is treading. This refers to giving to those who provide spiritual guidance, pastors/teachers, evangelists, etc.

 

[cloudyday2]

I think the inquiry of the OP is, at least in part, is the tithe required in the NT church?

That is part, but the other part is this: is tithing about the giver demonstrating obedience to God or is tithing about furthering God's goals thru charity, evangelism, etc.? If the first is true, then it seems that a person could tithe to a crooked church with the assurance that God appreciates the gesture regardless of the crooked result. If the second is true, then it seems that a person needs to switch churches.

An issue for my mother is the denomination. She likes Eastern Orthodox and there is only one other church of that type nearby. Also she likes the church she has been attending these past 20 years. However, the fact that this church never does anything charitable for anybody and there is no financial openness - that is bothering her now more than before. Most churches have thrift shops or other charitable activities. This church doesn't. Maybe it is simply that it barely can pay to keep the doors open. Who knows when the budget is secret.

 

[Hank77]

That is part, but the other part is this: is tithing about the giver demonstrating obedience to God or is tithing about furthering God's goals thru charity, evangelism, etc.? If the first is true, then it seems that a person could tithe to a crooked church with the assurance that God appreciates the gesture regardless of the crooked result.

I believe that God blesses a person by the intentions of their heart.

2Co 9:6 And this: He who is sowing sparingly, sparingly also shall reap; and he who is sowing in blessings, in blessings also shall reap;
2Co 9:7 each one, according as he doth purpose in heart, not out of sorrow or out of necessity, for a cheerful giver doth God love,
2Co 9:8 and God is able all grace to cause to abound to you, that in every thing always all sufficiency having, ye may abound to every good work,

If the second is true, then it seems that a person needs to switch churches.

I don't think that is necessarily true.

An issue for my mother is the denomination. She likes Eastern Orthodox and there is only one other church of that type nearby. Also she likes the church she has been attending these past 20 years.

Then she should probably stay there. But that is between her and God.

However, the fact that this church never does anything charitable for anybody and there is no financial openness - that is bothering her now more than before. Most churches have thrift shops or other charitable activities. This church doesn't. Maybe it is simply that it barely can pay to keep the doors open. Who knows when the budget is secret.

Does her church Demand that everyone give 10%? Or is this something your father always did so she is reluctant not to continue doing what he did?
After twenty yrs. your mom probably has a good idea of the amount of money taken in and where it was necessary to use it for the church and if there is any left over to help outside the church.
What if the church is helping to support people in the church? Are there elderly, widows, low income working families that cannot make it without help? I have seen churches help families with food, utility bills, etc.
So before being suspicious of wrong doing it might be wise to ask questions.

 

[RDKirk]

Why would they need to be forgiven? There is no temple, no high priest, no Levites, no established nation, no theocracy. They actually pay for the needs of the synagogue, their sons Torah teaching is paid, and they give to charities. This may be 10% or more. I see absolutely no reason that they need to be forgiven. I have never heard or read that any Jew prays for forgiveness in their giving. That is just bizarre.

Yom Kippur. They ask forgiveness for every part of the Law they're unable to fulfill as prescribed.

Paul said to not muzzle the ox while he is threading. This refers to giving to those who provide spiritual guidance, pastors/teachers, evangelists, etc.

Acts 2, Acts 4, 2 Corinthians 8. 2 Corinthians 8 also references Exodus 16 (the provision of manna in the wilderness). I'd point out that the only NT reference to the OT explicitly for giving is Exodus 16.

One pastor has said, "The Body of Christ has all the resources necessary to support the Body of Christ." IOW, Christ has made sure that Christians hold in our hands on any given day all the wealth necessary to make sure every Christian is clothed, housed, and fed.

 

[Hank77]

Yom Kippur. They ask forgiveness for every part of the Law they're unable to fulfill as prescribed.

Aw.... I'll have to do some research on that.

One pastor has said, "The Body of Christ has all the resources necessary to support the Body of Christ." IOW, Christ has made sure that Christians hold in our hands on any given day all the wealth necessary to make sure every Christian is clothed, housed, and fed.

I don't doubt that at all. However, we are not called to just take care of our own. We are called to take care of the stranger in need, which shows them the love of God bidding them to come in.

 

[RDKirk]

Aw.... I'll have to do some research on that.

I don't doubt that at all. However, we are not called to just take care of our own. We are called to take care of the stranger in need, which shows them the love of God bidding them to come in.

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. -- Galatians 6:10

 

[Hank77]

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. -- Galatians 6:10

Hmm....are you disagreeing or agreeing and pointing out believers first?

 

[Robban]

My mother attends a church that has never opened its books - even to church board members. She believes her 10% tithe should go to her church and her charitable giving is in addition to that 10%. She likes this church, but the secrecy of their finances suggests to me that something isn't right. The church was founded by several families in the late 1800s, and I suspect that they consider the church to be their family property. I can only assume that they must be concealing something embarrassing.

From a religious perspective, is tithing to a crooked church an act of obedience to God? Does the tither have a responsibility to ensure that the church is using the money in a way that would please God? Or is God satisfied with the sacrifice made by the giver regardless of the outcome?

Jesus chose a cashier, he was crooked, and Jesus knew it.

John 6:70.

But of course it is part of the story,

 

[RDKirk]

Hmm....are you disagreeing or agreeing and pointing out believers first?

If non-Christians observe that Christians are leaving other Christians to starve, then their witness to non-Christians is rendered hypocritical.

 

[Hank77]

If non-Christians observe that Christians are leaving other Christians to starve, then their witness to non-Christians is rendered hypocritical.

Yes, of coarse. The same if they don't take care of their own families.

 

[cloudyday2]

Does her church Demand that everyone give 10%? Or is this something your father always did so she is reluctant not to continue doing what he did?
After twenty yrs. your mom probably has a good idea of the amount of money taken in and where it was necessary to use it for the church and if there is any left over to help outside the church.
What if the church is helping to support people in the church? Are there elderly, widows, low income working families that cannot make it without help? I have seen churches help families with food, utility bills, etc.
So before being suspicious of wrong doing it might be wise to ask questions.

There is no demand for 10%, but there was a note in my "Orthodox Study Bible" saying that they continue to believe in tithing even though it comes from the OT. My father felt strongly that people should support their churches instead of sending the money to TV charities and so forth, so my mother believe that now also.

There is no hope of knowing where the money goes. Both my father and my brother have been church board members, and they were kept in the dark as much as everybody else. The church board there is basically a joke. One friend of my mother's remarked that he didn't even know he was on the church board until his term was almost over. The board seems to be only for appearances and the actual decisions are made by descendants of the founding families (apparently).

My father in particular was concerned that the church was not paying the priest enough, because the priest routinely goes to parishioners and asks to "borrow" money using lame lies. He has "borrowed" thousands of dollars from people in my family (including me), and he apparently has "borrowed" from many other people in the church. But there was no transparency on anything related to money - even for board members.

Also, when I said there was only one Orthodox church, what I meant is one additional church besides the one she currently attends. I would like for her to switch to the other Orthodox church, but that isn't the church that my father picked-out.

 

[cloudyday2]

Jesus chose a cashier, he was crooked, and Jesus knew it.

John 6:70.

But of course it is part of the story,

LOL, true.

 

[Hank77]

My father in particular was concerned that the church was not paying the priest enough, because the priest routinely goes to parishioners and asks to "borrow" money using lame lies. He has "borrowed" thousands of dollars from people in my family (including me), and he apparently has "borrowed" from many other people in the church. But there was no transparency on anything related to money - even for board members.

This makes the whole issue more convoluted. It's really something that only the church and maybe the priest can explain.

 

[cloudyday2]

This makes the whole issue more convoluted. It's really something that only the church and maybe the priest can explain.

IMO, tithing to a church like that is equivalent to throwing money on the sidewalk. Will the money be found and pocketed by a needy person or a greedy person?

If I was God, I would say "spend your tithe money to buy me a gift that I would want like feeding a hunger person - don't just throw it on the sidewalk."

 

[juvenissun]

Where in the NT does it say to tithe, which means 10 or 10 %?

Not sure. You may look it up.
I know Paul says that church should provide him on his needs.
Jesus also says: Caesar's to Caesar, God's to God.

 

[juvenissun]

IMO, tithing to a church like that is equivalent to throwing money on the sidewalk. Will the money be found and pocketed by a needy person or a greedy person?

If I was God, I would say "spend your tithe money to buy me a gift that I would want like feeding a hunger person - don't just throw it on the sidewalk."

You still do not learn (a pattern I learned pretty fast).
Follow your analogy (which is not an appropriate one), tithing should be like paying tax. Do you know how is your tax money used?