Tithing to crooked churches

[cloudyday2]

If she's not senile or something she can do what she wants with her money. If you have financial concerns, this isn't the forum for it, it's a family matter. I don't know why you're pretending to have a theological question about "what God finds acceptable".

O.k. so that is the source of your hostility. No, I'm not pretending.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

you certainly shouldn't give money to churches that appropriate the funds toward wickedness.

 

[Chesterton]

O.k. so that is the source of your hostility.

What did I say that you think is "hostile"?

No, I'm not pretending.

So you believe in God?

 

[cloudyday2]

So you believe in God?

I'm not pretending because I am genuinely asking for theological views on tithing. My mother believes in Christianity and believes in tithing, so I want to understand the theological views. That doesn't require me to believe in God. (I haven't told my mother that I am agnostic, because that would distress her.)

Do I believe in God? Sometimes I believe there might be something similar to God, but the God of Abraham is not a realistic option for whatever real God might exist (although I suspect the real God might pretend to be the God of Abraham when interacting with Jews, Christians, or Muslims).

 

[GUANO]

Perhaps He's pleased with the sacrifice made by the ignorant giver, but perhaps not the one who is giving against their own conscience.

What would Jesus say if you told him the Church was your personal property? Or better yet, tell Him that the church is owned by an incorporeal being that represents the 'interests' of a pantheon of other incorporeal beings that rule over it and were summoned into existence from the abyss by magistrates of the state and serves to follow the principles defined in the articles of incorporation just as He instructed Timothy (LOL).

 

[Hank77]

After my research on Kenneth Copeland for example, i wouldnt tithe at a church like his, much less be a member.

Copeland doesn't have a church he is an evangelist.

 

[DawnStar]

Any Christian that gives money to an institution they know to be crooked while thinking that God will bless them for being naive needs to have some sense knocked into them.

 

[Hank77]

Of course not. You tithe to "your" church. That is what God says. God does not say tithe to a "good" church.

Where in the NT does it say to tithe, which means 10 or 10 %?

 

[Yanni depp]

Copeland doesn't have a church he is an evangelist.

Creflo dollar suit your fancy?

 

[Hank77]

Creflo dollar suit your fancy?

He does have a church.

 

[RDKirk]

I was pretty weary donating money to any religious organization before but I can guarantee that I will never donate to a Christian charity again. Thanks for the warning!

I don't see the logic of your conclusion.

Servants, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but even to those who are unreasonable. For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. -- 1 Peter 2

Even before Christ, it was already a Greek philosophical question of whether someone obligated to obedience to another (say, a slave) could be said to have the capability of his own moral agency. Paul and Peter both answer that question in the same way.

It is entirely possible that a Christian may be in a circumstance of obligation to a human agency that is operating unjustly. Jesus is neither stupid nor a martinet--He knows who is actually operating with evil intention, and that is who will be held responsible.

 

[awitch]

I don't see the logic of your conclusion.

Why would I donate when at least some Christians say that it's not only fine to be ripped off, but God is OK with letting his name be used to rip off his people? But like I said, I don't like to donate money to any religious institution in general. These days, I only donate to Cornell Labs and the Audubon Society.

Jesus is neither stupid nor a martinet--He knows who is actually operating with evil intention, and that is who will be held responsible.

In the season finale of the Watership Down animated series, the Black of Rabbit of Inle (sort of a Grim Reaper character) appears before the villain and says, "My empire is not of this world, Woundwort. And no creature invokes my name for their own dark ends," before eliminating him and his army.
Perhaps this cartoon has set my expectations too high.

 

[RDKirk]

Why would I donate when at least some Christians say that it's not only fine to be ripped off, but God is OK with letting his name be used to rip off his people? But like I said, I don't like to donate money to any religious institution in general. These days, I only donate to Cornell Labs and the Audubon Society.



In the season finale of the Watership Down animated series, the Black of Rabbit of Inle (sort of a Grim Reaper character) appears before the villain and says, "My empire is not of this world, Woundwort. And no creature invokes my name for their own dark ends," before eliminating him and his army.
Perhaps this cartoon has set my expectations too high.

Nobody said "God is OK with letting his name be used to rip off his people."

Unlike men, God does not hold the victims accountable for the crime, and that's the question that was asked.

 

[awitch]

Nobody said "God is OK with letting his name be used to rip off his people."

See post #6.

 

[Halbhh]

God is pleased with the sacrifice made by the giver, regardless of how the religious organization chooses to use the money.
View attachment 203052

If the person really believes the church isn't His -- is not following Him, not obeying Christ -- then the person should definitely choose a different church.

 

[RDKirk]

See post #6.

You misunderstood the response you got to your question.

God is pleased with the sacrifice made by the giver, regardless of how the religious organization chooses to use the money.

That response speaks of what God thinks of the giver (who, in this case, is the victim).

It doesn't speak of what God thinks of the "crooked" receivers of the sacrifice. However, there is scripture regarding that matter, as well. 1 Samuel 2, for instance.

 

[RDKirk]

If the person really believes the church isn't His -- is not following Him, not obeying Christ -- then the person should definitely choose a different church.

Unless for some other reason God has placed him in that particular church.

I haven't been in a congregation yet that didn't have some problem (and I've only been in one in which I didn't have some quibble or complaint about what they did with the money), but I've been in congregations that I know God specifically placed me.

 

[Halbhh]

My mother attends a church that has never opened its books - even to church board members. She believes her 10% tithe should go to her church and her charitable giving is in addition to that 10%. She likes this church, but the secrecy of their finances suggests to me that something isn't right. The church was founded by several families in the late 1800s, and I suspect that they consider the church to be their family property. I can only assume that they must be concealing something embarrassing.

From a religious perspective, is tithing to a crooked church an act of obedience to God? Does the tither have a responsibility to ensure that the church is using the money in a way that would please God? Or is God satisfied with the sacrifice made by the giver regardless of the outcome?

If the person really believes the church isn't His -- is not following Him, not obeying Christ -- then the person should definitely choose a different church.

How to tell?

Christ gave us ways to know that are very precise and easy to look and see:

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 13, v35)

If you don't see that, then they are not His disciples. For instance, many in a church should be visibly in community, friendship with each other, including a pastor.

He also said:

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...."

Notice verses 17 and 18. What is the "will of my Father" in verse 21? The will of the Father is what Christ conveyed to us, in His Words, His commandments to us, to love one another, to forgive (not have any lasting grudges or judgements against anyone, but to forgive them), to love even those we feel or think are against us, our enemies. So, true followers of Him will be showing these visibly, and the easiest to see is whether they show real love towards you (if you are a believer).

 

[Rajni]

My mother attends a church that has never opened its books - even to church board members. She believes her 10% tithe should go to her church and her charitable giving is in addition to that 10%. She likes this church, but the secrecy of their finances suggests to me that something isn't right. The church was founded by several families in the late 1800s, and I suspect that they consider the church to be their family property. I can only assume that they must be concealing something embarrassing.

From a religious perspective, is tithing to a crooked church an act of obedience to God? Does the tither have a responsibility to ensure that the church is using the money in a way that would please God? Or is God satisfied with the sacrifice made by the giver regardless of the outcome?

From what I understand, tithing at all is a questionable practice under the new covenant. Or, rather, the enforcing of tithing. If one wants to give 10%, that's one thing. But to make it a condition of church membership, or salvation, or being invited to the church potluck on Saturday, that's questionable. On top of that, I thought it originally involved livestock, not $$$$.

 

[Halbhh]

Unless for some other reason God has placed him in that particular church.

I haven't been in a congregation yet that didn't have some problem (and I've only been in one in which I didn't have some quibble or complaint about what they did with the money), but I've been in congregations that I know God specifically placed me.

Exactly right. Every congregation I've been in is a mix, a whole range of attitudes and different degrees of following Him, different levels of maturity as Christians.