Tithing and First Fruits In Light of 2 Corinthians 9:7

[probinson]

To probinson, can you please address Acts 15:28-29 as it relates to this discussion?

Acts 15:28-29 KJV

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Hi Prosperity,

I'm not sure I understand what you're looking for here. Perhaps if you could clarify for me. Thanks!

 

[Prosperity]

Regarding...

Acts 15:28-29 KJV
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I think that the point that Godson777 wad getting at is that the New Covenant is a better Covenant, in that we can receive the blessings of the old Testament without troubling ourselves with the burdens of Old Testament Law. I think that he sees the tithe as part of old Testament law.

I expect that Godson777 will straighten me out if I'm ill speaking of what he believes.

Also please feel real free to answer the questions that I posed to Godson777 as well as my concept of giving that I offered in my last post.

 

[probinson]

Regarding...

Acts 15:28-29 KJV
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I think that the point that Godson777 wad getting at is that the New Covenant is a better Covenant, in that we can receive the blessings of the old Testament without troubling ourselves with the burdens of Old Testament Law. I think that he sees the tithe as part of old Testament law.

OK. I see now. I agree wholeheartedly that the new covenant is far greater than the old covenant, but I still have a hard time believing that God would do away with such a wonderful avenue for blessing his children, especially since I've experienced the blessing of tithing firsthand.

I expect that Godson777 will straighten me out if I'm ill speaking of what he believes.

Also please feel real free to answer the questions that I posed to Godson777 as well as my concept of giving that I offered in my last post.

I'll try to address some of these other questions later when I have time.

 

[Prosperity]

Anyone want to take this one on. I don't see the following as two disjointed thoughts. What I do see is a direct relationship between the prosperity of our soul and our health/prosperity.

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

 

[godson777]

In terms of the end result, I don't see a great deal of difference between you and godson777. Both of you will end up giving more than 10%. Both of you want to obey God. I don't think either one of you want to be legalistic. Both of you want to give joyously from your hearts.

Personally I'm starting to believe that the 10% tithe should be used as an example as is much of the Old Testament, except that by using the tithe as an example we are also entitled to claim the attached promise.

Let me approach this as a novice. By this I mean this; Let's say that I've decided to give to God. Let's say that I've come to understand that I'm to give to cheerfully give from the heart. Now I don't want to be legalistic, but rather I choose give out of my love of God. Now I get to the matter of how much do I give? Well, I expect that I would most likely look to the Old Testament for an example. I find in the Old Testament that people made monetary offerings and offerings of personal property/wealth to God for several different reasons. Now I see that giving should be:

- Generous (2 Cor 9:6 etc etc etc)
- Consistent (1 Cor 16:2 & Phil 4:16)
- Sacrificial (1 Chronicles 1:23-24, The widow in Mark 12, the Macedonian church in 2 Corinthians 8)
- Give with a Cheerful, glad attitude (2 Corinthians 9:7)
- You should give secretly and not boast about your giving (Matthew 6:1-4)

In light of the above verses, I decide that if I am to error, let it be on the side of caution, meaning that the least that I would give is 10%, because this is the example that I found in the old Testament that states how much and there is a blessing attached to the tithe, which I claim as mine.

In addition I would ask God to tell me as to who to give to and how much I should give. God say's in Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarded of them that diligently seek him."

I may even decide to give something of my own free will, just out of my love for God and the love He put in me for people.

I think that Christians mostly give to the Ministry for the spreading of the gospel, but rarely consider giving to each other or to the heathen. I think giving directly to people is also God's will.

You see, at the end of the day I would want to use Christ as my standard. How much was he willing to give to me. This makes it real easy to hear from God when he wants us to give something that is important to and a sacrifice for us.

I always remember that I can't out give God.

Comments are welcome.

Good post Prosperity!

 

[godson777]

Quote

Godson777, Galatians 3:29 states that we are heirs to the promises of Abraham, which are found in the Old Testament, and
that one of those promises are found in Malachi 3:8 where God says, "I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts."

God stated in Malachi 3:9, "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

So my questions are:

1. How can we get this blessing if we do not meet the requirement that God states in Malachi 3:9.
2. Is Galatians 3:29 compelling us to live under Old Testament law or is Galatians 3:29 simply telling us that tithe blessing in Malachi 3:9 is available to us when we meet God's requirement?

Galatians 3:29 KJV And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Malachi 3:9-10 KJV
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

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These promises are now ours because we are in Christ who is the seed of Abraham. However, as Paul stated in 2 Cor 9:6, our activation of these blessings in our life is not determined by 10% but by generosity. As you choose to live a sacrificial and generous life for God, he promises to bless your finances, protect your business, and make everything work. Tithing was a shadow of generous giving from the heart. As we do this, we will see the benefits of tithing in our life.

 

[godson777]

I still have a hard time believing that God would do away with such a wonderful avenue for blessing his children, especially since I've experienced the blessing of tithing firsthand.

A very interesting statement.

God has not at all done away with this wonderful avenue for blessing for his children. He has simply made it an even more wonderful avenue for blessing. By taking out set, rigid, strict, percentage amounts (that I believe are legalistic), God has opened up this avenue so that the blessing does not come on us by doing a work (10%), but by having a generous or loving heart.

It's interesting that you say you've experienced the blessing of tithing first hand. I believe that the blessing you are attributing to tithing is actually the blesssing of honouring God with your finances, keeping Him first, giving sacrifcially, and generously and consistently and loving the poor and supporting the Church. You have done these things and God has blessed you by filling your barns to overflowing! I suggest that if you have given the exact same amount, not because you thought we needed to give tithes, but because that was the generous amount that you decided in your heart to give, you would have received the exact same (or perhaps greater) results.

 

[godson777]

1. How can we get this blessing if we do not meet the requirement that God states in Malachi 3:9.

The requirement was based on the law of Moses because the Isrealites and the priests were failing to obey some of the laws set out by God under the Old Covenent. By obeying these laws they were able to receive the blessing of Abraham. Now that these laws have been nailed to the cross, the only law under the new covenant is the law of love. If we walk in the law of Love we will give generously and sacrificially and from the heart and we will see these blessings of Abraham activated in our life.

2. Is Galatians 3:29 compelling us to live under Old Testament law or is Galatians 3:29 simply telling us that tithe blessing in Malachi 3:9 is available to us when we meet God's requirement?

29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It is telling us that since we are IN CHRIST we are IN Abraham's seed, which makes us Abraham's seed also. Therefore we now have a right to recieve his blessing in our lives. We don't have to obey the Law of Moses to see this blessing activated in our life. We only have to obey the law of Love. The Law of Love will cause us to give generously and from the heart.

 

[JohnGLake]

Hi Prosperity,
First fruits is another question, but I dont believe that 2 Cor. 9:6-8 includes the tithe. The tithe is not what we sow, but what we owe. 2 cor. 9:6-8 speaks of offerings. The word makes a clear distinction between tithe and offerings.
John G Lake

 

[PastorJoey]

Hey Prosperity
I dont think 2 Cor. 9:7 would make tithing obsolete. TIthing cant be confused with giving. This verse is speaking of an offering. The tithe is a determined amount, but we give as we purpose in our hearts. This is probably why you havent heard WOFers relate this to the tithe. There is nt teaching about tithing, but there is no firstfruit teaching in the nt in regards to offerings. this doesnt mean it wouldnt be a good practice if a person decided to. I dont believe that firstfruit offerings are mandatory is what Im saying.
Pastor J

 

[PastorJoey]

I am a very firm believer that the principle of firstfruits applies today. We are called to get God the first, best, chief or choice part of our gross income and when we do this we will fund the spreading of the gospel, we are honouring God, and our barns will be filled to overflowing and our vats will brim over with new wine. (Pr 3:9-10)

Hi Godson,
I personally believe that tithes and firstfruits are 2 different things. Tithe is the tenth of all income. On the other hand, firstfruits were the whole amount of the first increase.
Example: If you got a 40$ a week raise at your job. That first 40$ would belong to the Lord. From then on, you would just begin to tithe from it. Creflo Dollar & Paula White have a good teachng on firstfruits. By the way, the first fruits went directly to the priests personally. Whereas the tithe went to the temple. I differ on one point with them though and that is that I believe that firstfruits are not mandatory as is the tithe today. If a believer chooses to honor their leaders/Pastors by giving them their firstfruits that is fine as long as they dont feel obligated or under pressure to do so. It should be a decision that they make in their own heart. The bible is clear however that our spiritual leaders are to be honored with our substance.
PJ

 

[Prosperity]

I know that you believe what you are saying, and I will be open to the fact that you might be right. Suffer me my inquiry. Please provide scripture in the New Testament that tells me that Jesus didn't pay all of my debts, including the mandatory 10% tithe, which in your own words is a debt, something that we owe. Why would we still "owe" God tithes if we are debt free?

I do cheerfully give, but it is more difficulty for me to be cheerful when paying a debt.

Again, from the New Testament, please show me clearly in scripture that there is a difference between tithe and offerings. I know the distinction in the old Testament, but I don't see the same legalistic/obligatory approach to giving in the New Testament.

 

[PastorJoey]

A very interesting statement.

God has not at all done away with this wonderful avenue for blessing for his children. He has simply made it an even more wonderful avenue for blessing. By taking out set, rigid, strict, percentage amounts (that I believe are legalistic), God has opened up this avenue so that the blessing does not come on us by doing a work (10%), but by having a generous or loving heart.

Hello again, interesting post godson.
Tithing is all about honoring God with our substance. When we refuse to tithe we are no robbing God of our 50 bucks. We are robbing Him of the honor that is due to Him. The question isnt should we still tithe today? the question is should we still honor God today?
Proverbs 3:9-10 KJV(9) Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase10) So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

One more thing I'd like to add:I think you mentioned earlier (something to the effect) that "we dont have to tithe ten percent, but we should tithe something." I have trouble with that statement because the very word "tithe" itself means "tenth". Its a mathmatical impossiblity for instance to tithe 5%.
I think that it just comes down to whether or not you believe we should tithe and I wouldf respect you the same if you didnt.
PJ

 

[Prosperity]

I don't think 2 Cor. 9:7 would make tithing obsolete. Tithing cant be confused with giving. This verse is speaking of an offering. The tithe is a determined amount, but we give as we purpose in our hearts. This is probably why you haven't heard WOFers relate this to the tithe. There is nt teaching about tithing, but there is no firstfruit teaching in the nt in regards to offerings. this doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good practice if a person decided to. I don't believe that firstfruit offerings are mandatory is what Im saying.
Pastor J

Hey Pastor J,

I've heard some WOF teachers say that First Fruits and Tithes are the same, while other WOF Teachers say they are different. I heard some WOF Teacher say that both are mandatory, while other say that only the tithe is mandatory.

Also please consider my precious post to JohnGLake.

I know that you believe what you are saying, and I will be open to the fact that you might be right. Suffer me my inquiry. Please provide scripture in the New Testament that tells me that Jesus didn't pay all of my debts, including the mandatory 10% tithe, which in your own words is a debt, something that we owe. Why would we still "owe" God tithes if we are debt free?

I do cheerfully give, but it is more difficulty for me to be cheerful when paying a debt.

Again, from the New Testament, please show me clearly in scripture that there is a difference between tithe and offerings. I know the distinction in the old Testament, but I don't see the same legalistic/obligatory approach to giving in the New Testament. vbmenu_register("postmenu_19601934", true);

I'm starting to think that I should just ask God how much he wants and where he wants it. This would seem the most sure path.

 

[PastorJoey]

I know that you believe what you are saying, and I will be open to the fact that you might be right. Suffer me my inquiry. Please provide scripture in the New Testament that tells me that Jesus didn't pay all of my debts, including the mandatory 10% tithe, which in your own words is a debt, something that we owe. Why would we still "owe" God tithes if we are debt free?

I do cheerfully give, but it is more difficulty for me to be cheerful when paying a debt.

Again, from the New Testament, please show me clearly in scripture that there is a difference between tithe and offerings. I know the distinction in the old Testament, but I don't see the same legalistic/obligatory approach to giving in the New Testament.

To try and answer your first question, mabye "owe" wasnt the best choice of words. It just rhymed with sow ! He, He!
I beleive Tithing is not the payment of a debt, but the acknowledgement of a debt." Yes Jesus paid all debts, but tithing even acknowledges that our debt has been paid. I use the customary nt verses that mention tithing, Jesus "this should you do and not leave the other undone" & the book of Hebrews,"there He receives them of whom it witnesses that He liveth" Is Jesus alive? the answer to this, I believe should answer the question of tithing. Just my conviction. I am interested though on you take of it.
Lake

 

[Prosperity]

I will have to get back with you tomorrow with a rested brain. I will post again tomorrow.

Thanks for our support.

 

[Prosperity]

To try and answer your first question, maybe "owe" wasn't the best choice of words. It just rhymed with sow ! He, He!
I believe Tithing is not the payment of a debt, but the acknowledgement of a debt." Yes Jesus paid all debts, but tithing even acknowledges that our debt has been paid. I use the customary nt verses that mention tithing, Jesus "this should you do and not leave the other undone" & the book of Hebrews,"there He receives them of whom it witnesses that He liveth" Is Jesus alive? the answer to this, I believe should answer the question of tithing. Just my conviction. I am interested though on you take of it.
Lake

PastorJ

PastorJ,

Up until just a few days ago, I saw it the way I think that you do, and we are still not far apart.

I think that, if Jesus paid our debt in every other way, then he also paid the debt of the tithe. The debt being sin and/or the result of sin. I acknowledge that the debt is paid, but I don't pay and/or give money to acknowledge that the debt of lying is paid, so why would I pay money to acknowledge the debt of the tithe that Jesus paid for the?

I believe that the Old Testament is to be used as an example. This is why I believe that our giving should be no less that 10%. I know a lot of word of faith Preachers who compel their congregations to tithe, give another offering of first fruits and another gift of offerings. I think that typically the offerings from the heart end up being the least amount given because of the giving done to adhere to legalistically oriented giving. Also, the parishioner figures, "Since I tithed, I have the blessing of the tithe coming to me and I don't really need anything else." So the parishioner ends up giving legalistically rather than giving from the heart. I think that this promotes a totally self centered giving rather than a God centered giving.

You have to remember that God was dealing with the unregenerate heart when he established the terms of the tithe under the old covenant, but we now have a more excellent covenant. Under the new covenant, God gives us a much greater opportunity to be blessed and to be a blessing to others. The later is where much of our blessings lie. Old Testament people dirndl's sow much and/or often into other peoples lives. They hoarded their blessings until they didn't have room to contain them. I think God expects better from us because we have some things that God's old covenant people didn't have. We have salvation, the mind of Christ in us, the Holy Ghost in us, the gifts of the Spirit and so much more.

This following list ma not be a comprehensive list, but it should give you some idea what I believe.

- I believe that God made man to be a giver, not a taker.
- Unless God were to tell me otherwise, I believe that it is God's will that we give at least 10% because of the example found in Malachi .
- I believe in seed time and harvest.
- I believe in the 100 fold return. I do believe that this means 100s fold return.
- I believe I can claim all the blessings of Abraham, without fulfilling the law, because Jesus fulfilled the law for me.
- I believe we should give our first and best to God and then he will give us His best.
- I believe that our giving should be generous, consistent, sacrificial (As Godson777 pointed out)
- I believe that we should give with a cheerful heart.
- I believe that we should give secretly and not boast about our giving.

- I don't believe that I can out give God.
- I don't believe that God's word will return void.
- I don't believe in haggling over the tithe because the 10% is a settled issue with me because it is a Godly example.

The most important thing I believe is that we should obey God in our giving with a cheerful heart, knowing that Jesus made it possible for us to give from our God given, Godly love of God.

God has blessed us with the ability to give with a cheerful heart.

Comments are welcome!

 

[Prosperity]

Pastor J,

I forgot to say in my last post;

I don't think that legalistic giving pleases God anymore. We are to give out of love, knowing that our heavenly Father loves us and that we will have a manifold harvest from our love love seeds sown.

I'm starting to think that many members of the congregation give sparingly out of the fear of not having enough. They also compound thier problem when legalistically to try to leverage God to pay them what they believe He owes them. Likewise I think that Preachers preach many legalistic aspects giving because they think it will help to motivate the congregation to give enough to meet the Church's needs.

I think that this accounts for why many Word of Faith people, both the leaders and the led, to live busted and disgusted. They're new covenant people who are teaching and giving legalistically rather that out of their love of God.

I do believe some have garnered some success in legalistic style giving because the giver is giving out of his/her love of God and it is for the sake of that love that Gods rewards them.

 

[Prosperity]

I believe that most WOF Teachers teach that the new birth and receiving the Holy Ghost, makes available to us the same level of relationship that Adam had prior to his fall. Adam was the righteousness of God prior to his sinning and we were made the righteous of God when we were born again.

With the afore mentioned serving as a backdrop for the preceding, then why should I try to fulfill any part of the law, since Jesus fulfilled the law and removed the curse from me?

The types of giving, that were established under the law, were established to permit the old covenant people to prosper in spite of the curse, but Jesus fulfilled the law and removed the curse from me.

I am now in right standing with God and have the same sonship standing with God, made available to me, that Adam had before he sinned. There were no curses between Adam and God until Adam fell. There was no need for the law prior to Adam yielding to the devil.

So, I say that the God's love and direction should serve as our guiding lights for giving.

Lester Sumerall once said that no movement of God grows beyond its' initial revelation. Lester said that this included the WOF movement. I believe that the next move of God will be the body of Christ learning how to operate in the fullness of God's love in every area our lives. This includes giving.

I believe that we have seen the beginning of this Love movement in things like America's response to the hurricane victims in our southern states. There has never been such a willingness for Americans to give as they've given to these hurricane victims. American citizens have donated far more money, goods and services than the U.S. Government. This is amazing, considering how strapped Americans are for money. I guess you might say that American's gave twice. They paid the taxes that Government used for hurricane relief and then, in addition to what the Government gave, the citizens gave even more than the Government did. Americans have opened their homes to these victims. Americans have given many of these victim homes, jobs, etc. Americans opened their hearts to these victims. I believe that is the influence of God's word that caused His Spirit to move on American's hearts.

Imagine how many people must be getting saveed as a result of this generosity. From the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation, more people turn to God during hard times than any other time. I believe as the end time becomes harder for people, so will the Love of God abound through his people, saving ten's of millions upon tens of millions.

More support for what I believe is a revelation that God gave me.

Evangelism in China

An evangelist to China told me that there are 100,000 people getting save every day in China.

Jesus sure can cook!

Now for the math:

The current population of China at the time I write this is 1,395,637,246.

This is approximately one Chinese person being borne every second, 24/7.

60 seconds x 60 minutes x 24 hours x 365 day = 31,536,000 Chinese born per year.

100,000 saved daily x 365 days = 36,500,000 Chinese saved per year.

36,500,000 Chinese saved per year
-31,536,000 Chinese born per year
4963000 more people being saved than born yearly

1,305,637,389 current pop China... 4,963,000 more saved than born yearly = 263+ years entire pop China saved

These figures are a few weeks out of date.

 

[PastorJoey]

Hi Prosperity, How’s it going? Fine I trust. I’ve finally got a chance to respond with pleasure to some of your comments. I’D like to say first of all that I believe you are on the right track. Your heart is right and that is what God is after. You are right we aren't too far apart on this subject.

Here we go:

I believe that there a lot of “mandatory” things that God commands us to do in His word. I think you would agree. Would you consider them to be “legalistic?” My point is that there is nothing wrong about being “legalistic” about what God is legalistic about. My personal opinion is that to be legalistic (in a wrong way) would be to do what God commands from a wrong motive. Example: “I’ll do it God, but I don't want to”. That person might as well not do it at all, that legalistic attitude does not please God, therefore the deed would not be either. Peter told Jesus, “We've been fishing all night long, nevertheless at your word I’ll let down the net”. – This is a perfect example of obedience minus the willingness. Peter legalistically obeyed Jesus.

Isaiah 1:19 KJV

(19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:





People who do God's commands “legalistically”, do so from a motive that believes they are actually earning favor from God by them. Their attitude is that they can control God by their obedience.



People who do God's commands from a right heart, do so from a motive of a “wholesome dread of displeasing Him”- (This is actually the definition of the fear of God).

Yes, He has commanded them, but this person is not in this just to see how much they can get away with and still go to heaven. They don't look at it as a command, but as just another opportunity to please their heavenly father who already has done everything for them.

I agree Prosperity that everything we do for God, rather, allow Him to do thru us, should be done out of a willing heart first. Tithing to me is simply about honoring God, which we are commanded to do so.

Proverbs 3:9-10 KJV(9) Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase10) So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

In Malachi, God said "ye have robbed me in tithes and offerings...".

I dont believe that God was referring specifically to being robbed of money. He's not hard up for cash. Prov. 3, I believe shows that God was referring to the honor we rob Him of by not recognizing Him as the total source of our supply. We can go back and forth about whether or not we are to tithe today. The question is, "should we still honor God today?" Keeping back the tenth part, only proves that the person doesnt #1 recognize God as the source of the whole; #2 trust Him as their sole provider.

Let me say for a moment that in a sense I do believe that you are right; the real problem is not “holding back the tithe”; the real issue is “the heart issue” that would cause a person to hold back the tithe. As new creatures, God judges us by our hearts. Things don't get easier, they only get tougher.

Pastor J