Tithing and Christian giving to church in a society with social safety nets...

[Homeby5]

We can study the early Biblical and anti-Nicene documents to point to supporting the poor with Christian charity. But how do we apply it to our churches in the 21st century where (in the United States at least) 40% of our income goes to the local and Federal Gov't which has taken over the churches role of supporting the poor?
In general terms, what does Christ expect of us today when financially supporting a local church?
Remember that not a single person died from starvation in America FROM LACK OF FOOD in recent memory. Yes...people have starved to death but it usually is the result of drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... not from a specific lack of access to food.
So, has our financial focus in our local church shifted from obligated charity of the poor to salaries, utilities, etc... where we now pay for teaching and evangelism ministries?

 

[Der Alte]

We can study the early Biblical and anti-Nicene documents to point to supporting the poor with Christian charity. But how do we apply it to our churches in the 21st century where (in the United States at least) 40% of our income goes to the local and Federal Gov't which has taken over the churches role of supporting the poor?
In general terms, what does Christ expect of us today when financially supporting a local church?
Remember that not a single person died from starvation in America FROM LACK OF FOOD in recent memory. Yes...people have starved to death but it usually is the result of drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... not from a specific lack of access to food.
So, has our financial focus in our local church shifted from obligated charity of the poor to salaries, utilities, etc... where we now pay for teaching and evangelism ministries?

I think they had the same problem at the time of Jesus.

Mark 12:14-17
(14) And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
(15) Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
(16) And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
(17) And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.​

 

[HTacianas]

We can study the early Biblical and anti-Nicene documents to point to supporting the poor with Christian charity. But how do we apply it to our churches in the 21st century where (in the United States at least) 40% of our income goes to the local and Federal Gov't which has taken over the churches role of supporting the poor?
In general terms, what does Christ expect of us today when financially supporting a local church?
Remember that not a single person died from starvation in America FROM LACK OF FOOD in recent memory. Yes...people have starved to death but it usually is the result of drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... not from a specific lack of access to food.
So, has our financial focus in our local church shifted from obligated charity of the poor to salaries, utilities, etc... where we now pay for teaching and evangelism ministries?

That's one of the difficulties I have. Back in the day there were poor people all over the place starving to death and had no means at all to feed themselves. So giving to a poor person was almost guaranteed to help feed them. Nowadays half our income goes to government, primarily for social programs, now the people you see begging on the streets are drug abusers and alcoholics. You're almost guaranteed that anything you give to help them is going to subsidize their drug habit. The Didache gives some guidance on it:

Happy is he that gives according to the commandment; for he is guiltless. Woe to him that receives; for if one having need receives, he is guiltless; but he that receives not having need, shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what, and, coming into straits, he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape thence until he pay back the last farthing. But also now concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.

I resolve the thing by encouraging people to give to a local food bank, and then only donations of food. It's easy to do and goes to actually feed hungry people.

 

[Hazelelponi]

We can study the early Biblical and anti-Nicene documents to point to supporting the poor with Christian charity. But how do we apply it to our churches in the 21st century where (in the United States at least) 40% of our income goes to the local and Federal Gov't which has taken over the churches role of supporting the poor?
In general terms, what does Christ expect of us today when financially supporting a local church?
Remember that not a single person died from starvation in America FROM LACK OF FOOD in recent memory. Yes...people have starved to death but it usually is the result of drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... not from a specific lack of access to food.
So, has our financial focus in our local church shifted from obligated charity of the poor to salaries, utilities, etc... where we now pay for teaching and evangelism ministries?

They may not have starved to death but people in poverty still have need, desperate need. The government gives food stamps but it has to be supplemented with what can be picked up at various food banks, because the government never gives quite enough.

The government may help with housing, but they won't pay an electric bill, or pay to have a persons car fixed or replaced when it's beyond repair and without a car to get to the store, doctor or school or work for those able to work towards bettering themselves - all necessary.

They also don't pay for children's school supplies, or clothing, or school uniforms, and they don't pay for a haircut either.

Churches often do the meal's on wheels program for the elderly where hot meals are delivered to those elderly who can't get out anymore, they are behind most food banks and outreach to the homeless programs.

Not only that but churches themselves have overhead, electric bills etc, plus your pastor deserves a salary for his efforts and time - as he has bills to pay also. Hymnals, Bible study reading materials and more that churches hand out all cost money too. 15 dollars for a book doesn't sound bad until you realize the cost might be (15 x 25 books)(12 months a year) so on and so forth.

Supporting your local church is essential to not only Christian charity, but to Christian duty if you have any means to give. Also essential is to know how your church is using the tithes. Are they good steward's? If so, your support is important.

My next door neighbor has been living without electricity for 2 months straight now, and I worry for him but there's literally nothing my husband and I can do to help him, as we aren't that far behind.

Couple that with the cost of heating oil this year and many will barely stay warm this winter - especially the elderly and disabled.

If you truly truly can't afford to give that's one thing, if you're the guy living in the house next door then feel no responsibility to give as you have none, but just because people aren't starving to death doesn't mean all their needs are met, and it is the churches responsibly to first look out for one another and then, in whatever way we are able to show the love of Christ and give to the needy in charity.

You didn't hand over your Christian duties to the state - it doesn't work like that.

 

[Sabertooth]

We tithe net. If more people are food secure, that means that more resources can be applied to evangelism directly. When I was able to attend our local church, its budget was made available to its membership and I never saw any questionable expenses.

 

[pdudgeon]

We can study the early Biblical and anti-Nicene documents to point to supporting the poor with Christian charity. But how do we apply it to our churches in the 21st century where (in the United States at least) 40% of our income goes to the local and Federal Gov't which has taken over the churches role of supporting the poor?
In general terms, what does Christ expect of us today when financially supporting a local church?
Remember that not a single person died from starvation in America FROM LACK OF FOOD in recent memory. Yes...people have starved to death but it usually is the result of drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... not from a specific lack of access to food.
So, has our financial focus in our local church shifted from obligated charity of the poor to salaries, utilities, etc... where we now pay for teaching and evangelism ministries?

Sorry, but I would beg to differ.
People are starving in the World for many different reasons.
But the three main reasons are:
1.The smaller supply of food for sale, and
2. The rising cost of food.
3. The rising cost of gas and diesel, used to transport the food.

So how does this affect Christian charity? It's in the shortage of food that is available for everyone.
Before these shortages, only the poor were affected. But the problem of food shortage has spread into the middle class, from which come the greatest percentage of the donations.
Are you surprised? You shouldn't be.
The middle class has a greater appreciation for the difficulties of the poor.
Those who are rich ( on the other hand) have a greater attachment to what they have hoarded, and an excessive reluctance to be parted from it.

 

[dzheremi]

Any church which is above the board should have some place to direct you to when you ask these questions. The Roman Catholics in the USA, for instance, print their weekly donations (both what they're asking for and what they've received in their past collections) in the parish newsletter that you get when you go to mass. Or at least they did when I was still RC, 14 years ago (I highly doubt they've changed that since). Up until my most recent move, 4-5 years ago, I would still receive a printed monthly newsletter from the Southern United States Diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which had information on all of the programs and projects they were running, and where they were financially with regard to each one. Now that I'm not in that diocese anymore, I can still go to the diocese website and look up the programs that they run.

I think it's easier to answer this question now than it would've been in the long past.

 

[Tolworth John]

So, has our financial focus in our local church shifted from obligated charity of the poor to salaries, utilities, etc.

This is really a question you should be asking of your local church leadership.
Are they aware of people needing food help, financial advice, of care needs etc

What organisations are there in your area that your church could work with to meet what ever poverty needs exsist.

Then there is the issue of spiritual povety. How is your church together with other like minded churches reaching out into your area?
How is your church reaching out to help the poor around the world, to reach the non christian world out there.

If you want ideas check out:-
hristians against Poverty, a uk financial advice service helping those with debt problems.
Tear fund and Barnabus fund to help the poor or the samaritans christmas box appeal.

reachout try doing The Christmasjourney.org.uk to act out in a school or church hall the journey to Bethlehem.

 

[Homeby5]

I'm never implied not supporting a local church. I did imply that our gifts are not going to what they were intended by the early church.
Up until modern times the local churches were responsible to care for the poor. Now we are all taxed to do this.
It seems that much of our gifts today go towards the building, salaries, utilities, etc... and the small percentage that is left over goes towards missions and the poor. Is this the way churches were intended to be run?

 

[Sabertooth]

I'm never implied not supporting a local church. I did imply that our gifts are not going to what they were intended by the early church.
Up until modern times the local churches were responsible to care for the poor. Now we are all taxed to do this.

There is a precedent for government providing for such services in its infrastructure if it is prepared to do so. As others have pointed out, there is still plenty of poverty to go around.

The Church is supposed to minister to the sick, too, but government may set up first responders as needed. The Good Samaritan would have been perfectly fine calling 911, if they had such a system in place. (It would have been preferred if there were neck or back injuries present.)

 

[dzheremi]

I'm never implied not supporting a local church. I did imply that our gifts are not going to what they were intended by the early church.

And that implication was based on what, exactly? Some vague sense of how it seems to you...?

Up until modern times the local churches were responsible to care for the poor. Now we are all taxed to do this.

Plenty of people both give to the poor and pay taxes, so I'm not sure where this big division between the two is coming from. And since at least the Ottoman times we have tax records showing what was levied against the Christians in the Middle East and North Africa region, including taxes on the land on which monasteries and churches are built. This is what is behind the fight of the Syriac Orthodox Church in the Tur Abdin area of Turkey to keep their Monastery of St. Gabriel (established 397, long before the Ottoman Empire or even the ethnogenesis of the Turks), just as one example, as they have the tax receipts to prove that it has been in their possession and legally allowed to stay there since at least the middle ages, against the claims of the local Turks and Kurds and the government that it is somehow Turkish (government) property, and its land should be given over to the more numerous Muslim ethnicities of the area for their development.

So it has actually been this way for hundreds of years, far outside of modern western countries and their taxation regimes. It has never prevented the Church from helping the poor. If your particular church isn't doing that, then that sounds like an issue that you need to take up with them. I don't see why anyone else should be indicted in the process, as though we're all guilty by association of whatever a nondescript Christian church in America is neglecting to do.

It seems that much of our gifts today go towards the building, salaries, utilities, etc.

It's not like such things were free in the past, so I don't know where this is coming from.

and the small percentage that is left over goes towards missions and the poor. Is this the way churches were intended to be run?

I think a better question you could ask yourself is: is this characterization representative of how the vast majority of churches in the world are actually run? I don't know if you only have experience in megachurches that have mall-like amenities or whatever, but especially on a worldwide level, the vast majority of Christians at every level tend to be poor themselves, and still look after the (other) poor, who are their friends and neighbors, after all. What exceptions to this there are tend to come from having better connections to richer western countries (e.g., relatives who already immigrated to Canada or wherever, who send money back home to pay for their relatives' school, weddings, etc.), or more of an emphasis on certain professions which are traditional to Christians in a lot of the world which also tend to pay better than being a shepherd back home in Syria or wherever (like how the joke in the Coptic Orthodox Church is that in every parish half the men are medical doctors).

 

[Homeby5]

Yes...but it seems today, the budgets of many churches (United States at least) commit most of the budget to expenses not spelled out in our NT. They try to manipulate less seasoned Christians by telling them they should tithe which of course isn't a requirement of the NT church. Even if it was, there were three tithes and they were used to feed the poor (every three years, DT 14:28-29) support the Priest (Num 18:21) and even throw a party which was really 12% IF you redeemed goods for money to buy party food and drink (Deut 14:22-27). But as we know the Priest could not own land and handled a LOT of work.
But our NT church is instructed to support the poor and inflicted. Remember, in early Rome, the Christians were persecuted both physically and economically. The Romans would often seize their property. As an example, Smyrna was a very poor church in a very wealthy city. Also...remember Paul's words in 2 Corinth where they were told to give what was laid on their hearts, and Paul would take back money to Jerusalem to feed the saints due to starvation.
Also...the early church was to spread the word of the Messiah around the Globe. That was accomplished, partly due to persecution causing Christians to scatter. We are also supposed to teach and edify each other. Lastly, we are to honor the sacrament of communion.
All I am saying is that from my limited experience, only a small percentage of our churches budget goes towards missions and feeding the poor. Most goes towards paying salaries and keeping the utilities of a building paid. Our Gov't has now taken over the main responsibility of feeding the poor by taxing us. I'm not saying to not support your local church...I'm just observing that it seems to me, our priorities have shifted massively. That's it.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm just observing that it seems to me, our priorities have shifted massively. That's it

That's what happens when government becomes people's god...

 

[dzheremi]

OP, you write "our church", but from your description it seems like you have a very parochial idea of who 'we' are. That's fine, I guess (I'm not expecting anyone to know about anything outside of their own experience), but you'd think that would be reason enough to limit the reach of your indictments accordingly. If you mean "churches I have personally interacted with behave this way", then you should write that, instead of attempting to make it seem like what you personally know about applies to all Christians who might read your message.

Or, to put it another way, something tells me that the utility bills to be charged to St. Anthony's cave on the red sea are a non-issue:

Ditto to whatever is charged to any of the ancient churches and monasteries of Ethiopia, Armenia, India, and so on. Even in America, when the parish into which I was received had finally saved up enough money to purchase a 'building' to be converted into a church (after 15+ years of worshipping in a private home, for lack of funds to do otherwise), in reality what it was/is is a small portion of a larger office park -- essentially one 'room' in a much larger building mostly occupied by small businesses. And all of the renovation was done by the people, despite this being a very small parish (six families total). The most senior deacon George built our iconostasis by himself. This is not at all unusual for our (Coptic Orthodox peoples') particular Church, since it's not like Egypt is particularly well-known as a wealthy country, so it stands to reason that most people in 'the homeland' live very simply.

 

[Fervent]

There are a lot of complex issues with giving, the tithe, and generosity in the NT. Giving was not, specifically, for any one thing but accomplished a number of things. Tithing in the OT was part of the welfare system for Israel, but it was also about coming into the presence of God when enjoying the fruits of the Earth. It was about recognizing that the best things belong to God and so the first tenth of any harvest was set aside for His devotion before the sustenance portion was taken. Giving in the NT was often about putting up collections for the poor, but was also a test of where the heart was. Focusing on giving as a matter of addressing the needs of the poor shifts the focus away from what it truly is, which is an act of worshiping God in honoring His provision in our lives.