Tired of this

[Rembrandtfan]

Is it just me, or does it seem like Christianity is full of people who feel threatened by anyone who sees things differently than they do? People who must always be right? It seems to me that there are too many in leadership who are like this. Childfree is just one of these things, that some people feel threatened about. Everything is an urgent, world-changing issue. When someone dares to rock the boat and say something different, they sound the alarm, and urge all Christians to side with them and have entire radio shows, sermon series, or other things and must come up with anything they can to refute it. They try to coerce Christians into siding with them by implying that they are carnal or "baby" Christians who can't handle the "meat of the gospel", if they don't. I hear words like this being thrown around all the time and I have gotten to the point where I'm thinking "Enough! Shut up, already. You're making us all look ridiculous!"

It seems to me that some churches or ministries have lost their focus on where it needs to be. They spend all their time worrying about what everyone else is doing or thinking, instead of reaching out to the hurting, the needy, and the lost. Whatever happened to "...they'll know we are Christians by our love" ? Now it seems like it's "..they'll know we are Christians because we can point out all their faults".

 

[HeyHomie]

Well-said, and I couldn't agree more.

I believe that we Evangelicals are WAY too crisis-oriented. Anything new or controversial requires an urgent and heavy-handed battle cry to all the leaders and pew-sitters to take up sides. Bleh.

 

[snoochface]

Very well said. I totally agree with you.

My husband and I were talking about this the other day, how so many Christians feel it is their mission to change the world politically, ban abortion and same-sex marriage -- as if by making people behave like "Christians", they are somehow saving them or making the world a better place. It's crap. It's making the world a more comfortable place for some Christians to live in, but it's not saving anybody.

It's always better to point out someone else's sin and "take a stand" against it than to examine your own sin. I've said this before, but I fully believe that if we are going to go march on Washington D.C. with our anti-abortion and anti-gay picket signs, I want to see some people down there with their "Stop Gossip Now!" and "Ban Liars in Congress!" picket signs too.

I don't remember anywhere in the Bible where it says, "Go forth and reveal sin among all nations." Christians give ourselves a bad name.

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As an aside, we tried a new church this week that has home fellowship groups starting this week. We went to the sign up desk and said we were interested in checking out a group. We listed on our form that we preferred a group of couples, with no kids.

The volunteer looked our form over and said there were only two groups with no kids - one of which was doing a study prepared by Focus on the Family, which we both hissed at instantly. That left one group - out of at least 20 - that would not have children present during the meetings. They meet on Monday nights, their first meeting is tonight, and they said that someone would be contacting us yesterday afternoon to give us the details.

I'm not really surprised that no one called.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

That left one group - out of at least 20 - that would not have children present during the meetings. They meet on Monday nights, their first meeting is tonight, and they said that someone would be contacting us yesterday afternoon to give us the details.

I'm not really surprised that no one called.

Is this group parents who won't have children present or people who have no children?

 

[snoochface]

Is this group parents who won't have children present or people who have no children?

It sounded like couples who may or may not have children, but if they did the children would not be present at the meeting. I don't think there are any groups specifically for couples who do not have children.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

I don't think there are any groups specifically for couples who do not have children.

Of course not. My church has groups for infertile couples, and everything else you can think of, but not childfree couples. If someone at my church started one, people would be sounding the battle cry for sure.

We'd have to meet outside of , and separate from the church. And I don't know who any of these people are, because like me, they are probably afraid to admit that they simply didn't want children.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I know what you mean when you speak of, "visible Christians". Although, I'm really not that concerned with what they put on the radio or in the news. I never listen to Christian radio or watch Christian news because A) It's rarely ever catered to Orthodox Christians & B) It's pretty much just most visible Christians way to 15 minuets of fame as far as I'm concerned. But my Church has it's own group of "visible Christians".

 

[Robinsegg]

Is it just me, or does it seem like Christianity is full of people who feel threatened by anyone who sees things differently than they do? People who must always be right?

I actually think this is a reflection of all society . . . not just churches. While I have not started a group for childfree couples . . . I am not part of one. I would not disagree with a group of childfree couples meeting in our church, or having special functions or special ministry goals. But I'd feel kinda awkward starting one since I have 2 kids and am heavily into the children's ministries. . . .
I understand that not all people are called to have children . . . not all couples are called to have children. And there are some couples who are not *yet* called to have children. What I *don't* understand is there not being a "place" for these people in Christian society.
Rachel

 

[bluebug83]

My husband and I were talking about this the other day, how so many Christians feel it is their mission to change the world politically, ban abortion and same-sex marriage -- as if by making people behave like "Christians", they are somehow saving them or making the world a better place. It's crap. It's making the world a more comfortable place for some Christians to live in, but it's not saving anybody.

It's always better to point out someone else's sin and "take a stand" against it than to examine your own sin. I've said this before, but I fully believe that if we are going to go march on Washington D.C. with our anti-abortion and anti-gay picket signs, I want to see some people down there with their "Stop Gossip Now!" and "Ban Liars in Congress!" picket signs too.

I don't remember anywhere in the Bible where it says, "Go forth and reveal sin among all nations." Christians give ourselves a bad name.

This is exactly the way I'm starting to feel, that theology and politics are entirely separate entities. Snooch is 100% right that nobody is going to be saved by inserting Christian morality into secular government, and just become more turned off to it, so there's absolutely no reason for it. Also, we need to realize that there is no reason to expect those who do not consider themselves Christians to follow Christian morality. If they do everything "right" by the book but don't know Jesus, aren't they still unsaved? I actually went to a Christmas Eve service at a mega-church where the pastor said something really profound. He was encouraging people to open their hearts and minds to Jesus, and said that "it's OK if you consider it a stretch to believe that Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale; don't worry about having to believe that and let that get in the way". I think that's the approach the world really needs. Baby steps, not immediate acceptance of everything at the moment of conversion.

Speaking as a US citizen...I think a lot of the religion/politics merge is based on the recent drive to "vote your values", for both liberals and conservatives. Politics has become the new religion, how you express your deepest held values and beliefs and condemn what you see as sin. Most people these days argue their political opinions by saying that it is a moral issue. What I have come to believe, however, is that politics should more be concerned with how to create a functional social structure (government) that tries to keep people both free and safe. In other words, keep an open mind for solutions that actually work, rather that only proposing solutions that work within your structure of the way things should be. This view is why I've recently come to take seemingly opposing views in my theology vs. my politics on some issues, even though God trumps government by far in my mind. It's just two completely different things, so having a different theological view from my political view on the same issue isn't really a conflict in my mind.

And I think a lot of this mentality is because society is no longer as religious as it used to be, so something has to take the place of religion in their lives, and that thing is politics. I've actually read some articles in my local paper recently about area "churches" that primarily tout and enforce political opinions rather than helping people cultivate a relationship with God. "God" is merely a tool to drive forth a political agenda. I see this in both liberal and conservative churches.

Going back to the original issue, I have to agree with Robinsegg that many people in society think everyone should believe as they should...not just Christians. And to play a little devil's advocate here, I can't really fault people for boldly preaching and living out their deeply held beliefs/values, no matter what they are. Of course they think they're right, just as we think we're right. If we're going to say that Christians who believe that childfreedom is wrong should consider our view, then how can you not say that we should consider their view that childfreedom might actually be wrong? I will, however, certainly criticize the method in which many Christians -- and non-Christians -- do this, as such method defeats their purpose of trying to get others to see their view because it turns others off.

 

[HeyHomie]

I remember a rather startling learning experience I had when I was a kid of about 8 or 9.

We had just learned about Judaism in school (a girl in our class was Jewish), and as I was riding with my family down the road, I noticed a big billboard that said something to the effect of: "Pork: Put it on your family's plate" (pork being a big agricultural product in central Illinois).

I kept thinking, "Why aren't the Jewish people around here complaining about that sign? They don't eat pork!"

Some time later it dawned on me: Jews (unlike a lot of Christians), don't expect everybody to obey their rules.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, and this was discussed in another thread. The "Da Vinci Code" came out, and a few people are saying that Jesus was married. There was a huge uproar in my church about this and among some respected Christian speakers that my church promotes. There was an entire sermon series about it, to make sure that, as Christians, we were all informed about why it isn't true, and so that we can inform others, as well. Personally, I don't believe Jesus was married either, but why all the fuss? Do they really think the majority of the people are going to believe something just because one person, or a fictional story says it? And that our entire culture is going to become corrupt for believing it? It's always one thing leads to another. Like, if a small minority doesn't produce children, then everyone else will catch on and do the same, then all Americans will become extinct. It's always these kind of arguments. Let's sound the sirens and you'd better hop on board and be a soldier for Jesus, or else the fall of western civilization will be all your fault.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Oh no, better yet what about being gay. If they don't attack it, everybody will wanna be gay. Cus nobodies' really straight to begin with.
/me sighs

 

[Rembrandtfan]

If they do everything "right" by the book but don't know Jesus, aren't they still unsaved?

That is a very profound statement, and I couldn't agree more. I think acts of kindness and service for the lost would speak much louder of who God is , than blasting them for breaking the rules.

 

[127.0.0.1]

If they do everything "right" by the book but don't know Jesus, aren't they still unsaved?

Well, if you're trying to imply that only Christians can go to heaven. I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you there. There are pagans in heaven who are there because they followed Jiminy Cricket's advice. But your right, actions do speak louder than words. When an atheist gets it and a Christian doesn't that's pretty sad. It makes atheism (aka absurd-ism) actually look attractive unfortunately.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

Jiminy Cricket! (imititates siren blaring) We need a four-part sermon series, to make sure the public doesn't really believe that Jiminy Cricket knows another way to heaven! If we don't act now there will be Jiminy Cricket shrines everywhere, and western civilization will end as we know it!

 

[snoochface]

Jiminy Cricket! (imititates siren blaring) We need a four-part sermon series, to make sure the public doesn't really believe that Jiminy Cricket knows another way to heaven! If we don't act now there will be Jiminy Cricket shrines everywhere, and western civilization will end as we know it!

LOL.

So many good points being made in this thread, I don't even know where to begin.

I think Homie hit it on the head -- Christians seem to hold the patent on expecting everyone, whether Christian or not, to behave as if they were Christians. This is so unbiblical. We are supposed to live in the world, but not be of the world. I'm not sure how we would accomplish that if we try to conform the world, believing or not, to our behavior. We're not really living in the world and making a distinction by not being of the world then, are we? We're just assimilating the world to us.

The same goes for different flavors of Christianity. Some believe you need to procreate, and prolifically, to be a Christian. Some believe you need to speak in tongues to be a Christian. Some believe you need water baptism to be a Christian. And many believe you need to conform to their brand of Christianity in order to participate in their church. Sort of takes the oomph out of the church as "one body" doesn't it?

 

[bluebug83]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, and this was discussed in another thread. The "Da Vinci Code" came out, and a few people are saying that Jesus was married. There was a huge uproar in my church about this and among some respected Christian speakers that my church promotes. There was an entire sermon series about it, to make sure that, as Christians, we were all informed about why it isn't true, and so that we can inform others, as well. Personally, I don't believe Jesus was married either, but why all the fuss? Do they really think the majority of the people are going to believe something just because one person, or a fictional story says it? And that our entire culture is going to become corrupt for believing it? It's always one thing leads to another. Like, if a small minority doesn't produce children, then everyone else will catch on and do the same, then all Americans will become extinct. It's always these kind of arguments. Let's sound the sirens and you'd better hop on board and be a soldier for Jesus, or else the fall of western civilization will be all your fault.

I understand what you're saying because my pastor also did a Da Vinci Code series when the movie came out. I agree it's not as big a deal because I don't think being married/not was a big part of who Jesus was, and I agree that there was too much uproar over it, ie people being offended. But I think what movies like that do is spark interest in the general population in who Jesus was, and maybe a sermon series could be a way to say "hey, this new movie just brought up a great point, let's discuss it!". Not to say that everyone that felt the need to respond to DVC thought that way, but just a possibility.

Well, if you're trying to imply that only Christians can go to heaven. I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you there. There are pagans in heaven who are there because they followed Jiminy Cricket's advice. But your right, actions do speak louder than words. When an atheist gets it and a Christian doesn't that's pretty sad. It makes atheism (aka absurd-ism) actually look attractive unfortunately.

I know what you're saying and agree that many atheists and members of other religions do a better job of exhibiting Godly love than many Christians do. My view of salvation is inclusivism, I believe that Jesus Christ is the only one who saves but one need not have explicit knowledge of him on earth in order to be saved. I think this is fairly obvious where in the New Testament Jesus talks about how some will claim to know him and won't go to heaven, while there will be others who really did his work without knowing who he was who will be invited into heaven. Salvation is a very complex issue, I don't believe I have it all nailed down and I don't think it's anything any of us will ever 100% understand...nor do we need to, except for our own salvation and loving concern for others in our lives.

 

[progressivegal]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, and this was discussed in another thread. The "Da Vinci Code" came out, and a few people are saying that Jesus was married. There was a huge uproar in my church about this and among some respected Christian speakers that my church promotes. There was an entire sermon series about it, to make sure that, as Christians, we were all informed about why it isn't true, and so that we can inform others, as well. Personally, I don't believe Jesus was married either, but why all the fuss? Do they really think the majority of the people are going to believe something just because one person, or a fictional story says it? And that our entire culture is going to become corrupt for believing it? It's always one thing leads to another. Like, if a small minority doesn't produce children, then everyone else will catch on and do the same, then all Americans will become extinct. It's always these kind of arguments. Let's sound the sirens and you'd better hop on board and be a soldier for Jesus, or else the fall of western civilization will be all your fault.

It's the "slippery Slope" argument, which is a well known logical fallacy. When someone starts in with stuff like that, I stop respecting them and their opinion.
Another thing that bothers me is the negativity about EVERYTHING that so many Christians seem to have. It's like EVERYTHING is "evil" or "bad" it's the whole "yup, it's all going to burn, we're all going to hell in a hand basket" attitude. It's hard to take. What about -Heaven Forbid- actually focusing on the GOOD things going on in the world? What about looking for the good inside of people instead of assuming we're all rotten to the core? Last thing I heard we were made in the image of God, and I don't think that's supposed to mean that God has two eyes, a nose, and male or female parts. I think it means we all have the breath of God inside us. Why do Christians always seem to be so, afraid of everyone and everything, and why do so many assume everyone is out to get them? I don't mean to assume ALL Christians are like this, just many that I know and many that seem to be prominent in the media. I just wish that they could open their hearts and their minds a little bit more. It's a beautiful day, the sun is shining (well it was, now it's setting, but I'm being metaphorical here) and people are doing good and wonderful things all over the world. And God loves us. So why so glum?

 

[Epoh99]

In regards to childfree ministries at church, I completely understand why there aren't any at my churches (we're actually alternating between two different churches right now....the church we've attended forever and a church we're thinking of leaving our current church for. Yet another change I'm trying to deal with). There either aren't any childfree or maybe one or two couples. I really don't see a need for the ministry at my churches because it would just be me and my husband, maybe another couple.

And actually that translates over into my work life and social life. I know two other childfree couples and they're both at my work. So, it really doesn't bother me that at my churches there aren't any ministries catering to childfree. Also, neither of my churches or Sunday school classes have ever preached against childfreedom. Of course they'll say things about children being a blessing but that also doesn't bother me because for most people they are. I do, however, think it would be nice if there were some activites for couples where kids weren't allowed. But, even then I don't get too agitated because once again, I'm in the minority and understand that.

The rest of what you guys are discussing...hmmm, I'd have to read the posts more closely because I'm not sure that I agree but don't want to get on a soap box if it's not necessary. I just scanned the posts and don't want to argue something that's not there.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Another thing that bothers me is the negativity about EVERYTHING that so many Christians seem to have. It's like EVERYTHING is "evil" or "bad" it's the whole "yup, it's all going to burn, we're all going to hell in a hand basket" attitude. It's hard to take.

Wow, I can certainly relate to you there. I can recall when I was a little younger, I was very disgruntled with the anti-American attitude that I felt I was getting from my Church. It almost seemed like they were saying, "Greece does everything right, America does everything wrong. " I don't like everything my country does, but I can only take so much Greece is better than America (read, Gatorade's better than water). I can't take America bashing every day.

PS
On a funny side note. If I remember correctly, we once had a priest from Greece give a homily at our Church. He chewed us out for our modern convinces. Which one you ask? DVD players. He encouraged us to watch VHS tapes since they weren't as convenient. He eluded to the fact that he (& I'm guessing his family) never watch DVD's...they only watch VHS tapes. There was (I believe) an allusion that this was common in Greece (VHS tapes, to fight the American influence I guess). Newsflash, Greece is big on DVD piracy...what do you think they're watching those movies on? Oh, right, they download them off the web then copy them to VHS tapes...OK, right.
A bit of advice when you visit a foreign country, please don't cling to stereotypes.

There have also been a few times when the idea was thrown about, dreamily, of everyone just selling all that they have and going off to live in a monastery. He even encouraged the married couples to become monastics by telling them that most of the married saints of the Church died as monastics. We read often about the lives of the saints and how they just threw everything away and became monastics. But I could never leave my wife...I wonder what kind of Christian that makes me.

PPS
Nothing against Greece.

What about -Heaven Forbid- actually focusing on the GOOD things going on in the world? What about looking for the good inside of people instead of assuming we're all rotten to the core?

In our Church it's supposed to be more like, "Yeah, hurray we're being persecuted!" And we all march before the judge, joyfully and declare ourselves as Christians. Then we are subjected to boiling oil, or having our limbs ripped off, or being ran through with spears and then we become martyrs and it's a very joyous occasion. Although, I get a little nervous about the idea of being butchered...wonder what kind of Christian that makes me.

Sorry I don't mean to slander them, but it just feels good to express my feelings once in a while (shudders...feelings aren't a comfy spot).