Tired of this

[Rembrandtfan]

Wow, I can certainly relate to you there. I can recall when I was a little younger, I was very disgruntled with the anti-American attitude that I felt I was getting from my Church. It almost seemed like they were saying, "Greece does everything right, America does everything wrong. " I don't like everything my country does, but I can only take so much Greece is better than America (read, Gatorade's better than water). I can't take America bashing every day.

PS
On a funny side note. If I remember correctly, we once had a priest from Greece give a homily at our Church. He chewed us out for our modern convinces. Which one you ask? DVD players. He encouraged us to watch VHS tapes since they weren't as convenient. He eluded to the fact that he (& I'm guessing his family) never watch DVD's...they only watch VHS tapes. There was (I believe) an allusion that this was common in Greece (VHS tapes, to fight the American influence I guess). Newsflash, Greece is big on DVD piracy...what do you think they're watching those movies on? Oh, right, they download them off the web then copy them to VHS tapes...OK, right.
A bit of advice when you visit a foreign country, please don't cling to stereotypes.

There have also been a few times when the idea was thrown about, dreamily, of everyone just selling all that they have and going off to live in a monastery. He even encouraged the married couples to become monastics by telling them that most of the married saints of the Church died as monastics. We read often about the lives of the saints and how they just threw everything away and became monastics. But I could never leave my wife...I wonder what kind of Christian that makes me.

PPS
Nothing against Greece.

In our Church it's supposed to be more like, "Yeah, hurray we're being persecuted!" And we all march before the judge, joyfully and declare ourselves as Christians. Then we are subjected to boiling oil, or having our limbs ripped off, or being ran through with spears and then we become martyrs and it's a very joyous occasion. Although, I get a little nervous about the idea of being butchered...wonder what kind of Christian that makes me.

Sorry I don't mean to slander them, but it just feels good to express my feelings once in a while (shudders...feelings aren't a comfy spot).

I doubt that people who have actually endured persecution enjoyed it. I don't think the bible is saying that we are to go looking for it. I think what it says about rejoicing when we are persecuted is meant to be comfort and encouragement if we do happen to suffer, to look forward to our reward in heaven. Not that we are to be a bunch of sadomasichists. Or to say "look everyone, I'm being persecuted. Aren't I wonderful?" I would think being prideful about it, or doing it to be seen by men, would cancel out any reward in heaven for it. Also, it's one thing to say you'll suffer and die for a cause, but it's another thing entirely when it comes time to actually do it. Take Simon Peter, for example.

 

[trvlgurl]

In regards to childfree ministries at church, I completely understand why there aren't any at my churches (we're actually alternating between two different churches right now....the church we've attended forever and a church we're thinking of leaving our current church for. Yet another change I'm trying to deal with). There either aren't any childfree or maybe one or two couples. I really don't see a need for the ministry at my churches because it would just be me and my husband, maybe another couple.

And actually that translates over into my work life and social life. I know two other childfree couples and they're both at my work. So, it really doesn't bother me that at my churches there aren't any ministries catering to childfree. Also, neither of my churches or Sunday school classes have ever preached against childfreedom. Of course they'll say things about children being a blessing but that also doesn't bother me because for most people they are. I do, however, think it would be nice if there were some activites for couples where kids weren't allowed. But, even then I don't get too agitated because once again, I'm in the minority and understand that.

The rest of what you guys are discussing...hmmm, I'd have to read the posts more closely because I'm not sure that I agree but don't want to get on a soap box if it's not necessary. I just scanned the posts and don't want to argue something that's not there.

I have been lurking in this forum for about year but decided to de-lurk. The isolation of being CF* is tough, especially in churches. I thought I might offer a little unsolicited advice...

My husband and I did a complete friend overhall. We had many friends who just could not understand our choices and they were quite vocal in their dispproval. Well, they now get a card at Christmas and that's about the extent of our friendship. It may sound harsh, but I think it has been a healthy choice for us.

We also made a point to start befriending childed couples at our church, but we chose them carefully and did make a few missteps.

I also have learned to verbally shut down any sort of "questioning" of my choices. As a result, the people who disapprove of our CF status pretty much leave us alone. The childed couples who are still open and friendly to us are the people we choose to get to know better. So far its working...we have made several new couple friends and we are optimistic. Our new friends seem to enjoy being around us because there is no pressure to buy into the whole "perfect parent world" craziness.

(FYI perfect parent world is not meant to be deragatory, it is a term used in the book Kingpin Dads and Queen Bee Moms...it describes the pressure parents feel to project the image that they have perfect kids and lives)

*CF=childfree

 

[127.0.0.1]

(FYI perfect parent world is not meant to be deragatory, it is a term used in the book Kingpin Dads and Queen Bee Moms...it describes the pressure parents feel to project the image that they have perfect kids and lives)

It's all a conspiracy, they just want to pressure you into feeling like you need to be a model parent so they can sell your something. After all, what model parent would be caught dead without one of these! LINK1 &
LINK2

Now don't those kids look happy! Happy to know that your watching their every move, keeping them safe, being a model parent.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

I have been lurking in this forum for about year but decided to de-lurk. The isolation of being CF* is tough, especially in churches. I thought I might offer a little unsolicited advice...

My husband and I did a complete friend overhall. We had many friends who just could not understand our choices and they were quite vocal in their dispproval. Well, they now get a card at Christmas and that's about the extent of our friendship. It may sound harsh, but I think it has been a healthy choice for us.

We also made a point to start befriending childed couples at our church, but we chose them carefully and did make a few missteps.

I also have learned to verbally shut down any sort of "questioning" of my choices. As a result, the people who disapprove of our CF status pretty much leave us alone. The childed couples who are still open and friendly to us are the people we choose to get to know better. So far its working...we have made several new couple friends and we are optimistic. Our new friends seem to enjoy being around us because there is no pressure to buy into the whole "perfect parent world" craziness.

(FYI perfect parent world is not meant to be deragatory, it is a term used in the book Kingpin Dads and Queen Bee Moms...it describes the pressure parents feel to project the image that they have perfect kids and lives)

*CF=childfree

I've started taking this approach, too.

 

[Robinsegg]

I also have learned to verbally shut down any sort of "questioning" of my choices. As a result, the people who disapprove of our CF status pretty much leave us alone. The childed couples who are still open and friendly to us are the people we choose to get to know better. So far its working...we have made several new couple friends and we are optimistic. Our new friends seem to enjoy being around us because there is no pressure to buy into the whole "perfect parent world" craziness.

May I ask a question?

Does the "verbal shut down" of any questioning include a situation where someone has been very open about your CF status and may simply be curious so they can know you better? Someone you're fairly close to?

When I ask questions here, it is often in an attempt to understand others who have a different perspective than I . . . it's never to condemn or find a reason to tell a person they're wrong. If I offend you with my question, please accept my apology and disregard it.

Rachel

 

[trvlgurl]

Rachel,

I never really get legitimate questions about my CF status. I think that is because my circumstances make it pretty clear why I don't have kids. (Obviously these circumstances don't reveal themselves in an online discussion.)

I work ALOT. Not for money or prestige, but because I have people who are counting on me to help them and 40 hrs/wk just does not cut it. People who know me, even slightly, can see this and it is pretty obvious why I am not trying to raise a child given my other responsibilities.

Therefore, when I am questioned, its almost always by someone who has an agenda. FWIW the verbal shut down technique typically goes like this...


Them: Any children?

Me: No.

Them: Why Not?

Me: It's complicated. Smile dismissively


At this point someone without an agenda usually changes the subject. Unfortunately the conversation often continues something like this...


Them: But don't you like children? Isn't your life empty?(Or insert any other bingo)

Me: I said it was complicated...that was supposed to be a nice way of asserting that I don't want to discuss this with you.


Probably 75 pecent of people leave it alone at this point. But some like to push the envelope...


Them: Why do you hate children? Are you gay? You must have had at least one abortion? Aren't you afraid your husband will leave you? etc etc. etc

Me: When it comes to my private life, I have no interest in earning your approval. If you can't come to terms with that, I suggest you take it to the Lord in prayer because THIS converstaion is over.


I have never had anyone keep asking questions after that...If they did, I would just keep reiterating "We are finished here..." "This conversation is over" etc.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Them: Aren't you afraid your husband will leave you?

Ugh, that'd one would just be infuriating to me.
If someones said that to me I'd probably be thinking something like, "Oh yeah, my spouse never married me for ME, they just married me as a means for children. Well, better start getting those babies out otherwise my spouse won't love me anymore. It's not as if they could have ever loved me for any OTHER reason."

Doubtless a debate on children can end a relationship but in most cases I find that comment absurd.
Sorry...I'll stop.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, and this was discussed in another thread. The "Da Vinci Code" came out, and a few people are saying that Jesus was married. There was a huge uproar in my church about this and among some respected Christian speakers that my church promotes. There was an entire sermon series about it, to make sure that, as Christians, we were all informed about why it isn't true, and so that we can inform others, as well. Personally, I don't believe Jesus was married either, but why all the fuss?

Probably because it challenged the status quo.

If you think about it, this has been going on since the dawn of Christianity. The Proto-Orthodox Christians, which would become the dominant form of Christianity, always deemed people who taught and believed different doctinres then themselves as "heretics".

There are also Islamic heresies, Jewish heresies, and heresies in just about every major world religion. I think it's in animal's nature to exclude others who don't look, act, think, and believe as you do.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

Them: Why do you hate children? Are you gay? You must have had at least one abortion? Aren't you afraid your husband will leave you? etc etc. etc

Yes, it's strange how some people like to lump everyone into the same category.

Childfree always = childhater, gay, abortion