Time to rebel against the clergy (a call to all)

[AskTheFamily]

The holy books can be condensed to saying “By the name of God” should be your every movement towards God and goodness and your compass.

In this discussion revolving around God’s Name, it has said, he sent Prophets to manifest what the name of God is and not only that, but has made the Prophets eventually hold the station of being God’s Name on earth by which the ships of salvation are sailed, and justice is to be achieved. In the case of seal of Prophets, I believe 12 non-Prophet leaders succeeded this position only because there was wisdom in sealing revelations, while in the past, in make senses the Leaders would be Prophets and over all the Prophets would be Messengers.

What has occurred time and time again, whether these leaders from God were present or hidden from the people, is that people attributed this very authority and leadership to clergy. This Aaron Priesthood was meant for chosen ones alone, and not to be mixed with others.

The books of God are also different in that is an expression of God’s Name in words but in a structure that is a boundless ocean, and always happens that a nation denies the knowledge of the book because of the leaders they chosen tell them “this and that” is not in God’s book while God’s books always testify everything (regarding guidance) is found in the book and nothing has been neglected.

God deprives the people of knowledge of the book when they themselves deny it. And all denial of it is done because people want to not search, reflect, and ponder, over the words that are interpretation of the family of the reminder of the time, and are in this intoxication of love of idols in form of leaders who are not appointed by God. In fact, people always go to the extreme regarding the leaders appointed by God and make them into gods or something, according to God's books ONLY because of their allegiance to clergy and leaders non-appointed by God showing the latter were in reality their biggest idols.
The rebellion against clergy is foremost needed for a stepping ground for all religions. We divide and do not discuss with another, because of taking clergy as lords and gods heedlessly. We value obedience to them and love them more than God or else we would have been terrified of attributing God what we do not know or disobeying him.

 

[awitch]

I would have suggested corruption, government entanglement, child abuse and cover ups, and hate preaching as more significant reasons.

 

[com7fy8]

this intoxication of love of idols in form of leaders who are not appointed by God.

It is true that we must not make an idol out of a leader. But even if a person is approved by God, there are people who can make an idol out of even an approved person!

The rebellion against clergy is foremost needed for a stepping ground for all religions.

But isn't the real problem the people who make a leader an idol? So, rebelling against the clergy does not take care of the problem of how humans can make other humans idols.

We humans also can make love idols out of our children and close friends. And this degrades us from how Jesus desires that we love any and all people >

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" Jesus says in Matthew 5:46.

So, we can make idols of non-clergy people, too, by loving only certain people, perhaps the people we can use for selfish things we want.

I would have suggested corruption, government entanglement, child abuse and cover ups, and hate preaching as more significant reasons.

But it is wise not to condemn the right ministers along with those who are evil. Not all ministers are doing such evil. So, we should not be thinking about rebelling against any and all clergy, but we need to become able to tell the difference. A part of the clergy abuse problem is how people can not tell the difference between ones they can trust and ones who are deeply sick with evil.

The evil ones do not represent the ones who are of God's love and examples >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

But there are people who can not tell the difference; and so they decide that because a number of bad clergy have been in the news, they believe this means that any and all clergy are bad. So, it is important to get to know each one. It is lazy to just say all are bad, and not make an effort to make sure about each person.

With God through Jesus we can have the ability to tell the difference. In God's love we share with God in His light and good sense so we can see people right and tell the difference between who it is good to trust and how it is not wise to trust someone.

 

[AskTheFamily]

The argument was that Leadership belongs to chosen ones. And there is two type of leaderships (didn't write this on top), one who wants people to blindly follow and another that seeks to follow them through perception and enlightenment and reflection. Prophets were of the latter type.

It doesn't matter if there is good potential leaders, the fact is, if these people can be a few or even just 50/50, people can't distinguish through them and so people must know the knowledge before discerning who to learn from (which is circular).

The truth of the matter and the truth of the Torah and Quran and it's clear arguments, is that this position of leadership and name of God and representation of the path of God, is chosen and set by God. That is the whole emphasis on Seth and the name Samuel later.

And what type leadership, the type we look to exalt, the type meant for Aaron and his family, just as kingship was meant for Isaac, Jacob and Joseph exclusively over others related to Abraham like the bothers of Joseph.

 

[awitch]

But it is wise not to condemn the right ministers along with those who are evil.

No, but it means we should not assume they are inherently good.

With God through Jesus we can have the ability to tell the difference. In God's love we share with God in His light and good sense so we can see people right and tell the difference between who it is good to trust and how it is not wise to trust someone.

This clearly is not true given the prominence of such abuses by clergy (regardless of the religion).

 

[AskTheFamily]

Well said awitch, and another perspective is that you don't have to deal with best scenario averages or best case scenarios, in computer science, often, you show a problem with worst case scenarios or on average run time cases... so the holy books do not need to show it's inevitable despite it being so when people take the mantle of leadership and representation of the message for themselves to lead to corruption, it just has to show that it can and does often happen.

And the proof that often happens is that corruption of almost all religions through out the lands. And among the proofs of this in the Bible is the phrase that the generations leading to Noah's arrival, were corrupted for taking the name of God for themselves.

And Noah nor his people have to exist to show the truth of this. It's rationally possible when people rely on other then those appointed as God's Names like Samuel (name of God is what his name means) and have no proof of authority and leadership, for corruption to ensue, when people center in love around idols they have chosen and made for themselves, it's no doubt, a recipe for disaster.

In other words, whether 80% of clergy are right or 70% are wrong of whatever, doesn't matter.

And this is what Imam Hassan Alaskari (as) argues, that while it's possible there is a pious scholar that is followed whence he obeys his Master, goes against his desires, the reality is most are not that, and hence the position of leadership of scholars when followed and when scholars are made the center of attention, leads to disaster. So one should not follow blindly nor center around for wisdom those not tasked for the task of guidance and we don't have time to listen to everyone.

So looks for those who have proofs and evidence, and who have a book that is a divine miracle, and look to find the divine miracle through searching the wisdom and reflecting, and seek in all that, those who potentially are it's proper interpreters and guides, and don't rely on what is doubtful but on what is certain to build on what is certain, and eliminate the ambiguities by what is clear.

Peace my friends, may we all seek the truth and unite on settling our disputes, and come to God sincerely valuing him above all else, and in all that, seek to destroy the idols we have made, and rely on the those who are the Captains of the ships that are by the name of God in it's sailing and anchoring.

 

[Zoness]

Way ahead of ya, man. I already don't listen to clergy.

 

[ananda]

The holy books can be condensed to saying “By the name of God” should be your every movement towards God and goodness and your compass.

Our books are not in the name of a god.

The rebellion against clergy is foremost needed for a stepping ground for all religions. We divide and do not discuss with another, because of taking clergy as lords and gods heedlessly.

What about those of us with no clergy?!

 

[TheOldWays]

Way ahead of ya, man. I already don't listen to clergy.

Ditto. Clergy falls into the same pile as any figure that promotes an egregore's agenda. So mostly politicians, celebrities and media talking heads.

 

[dlamberth]

Way ahead of ya, man. I already don't listen to clergy.

We have teachers and guides, but with the spiritual path that I follow, we have no beliefs, dogma or rules and other than the Holy Scripture of Nature as our Sacred Manuscript we have nothing to clergy about. I'm even had to google clergy to get an idea of what this is about.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Relying on the Taghut (false idol) through passion of the self and orienting one towards their desire is not much better if at all then relying on leaders as idols, but that is a different conversation.

And who is more unjust than he who follows his passion with other then God's guidance when God's guidance has become readily available and who more unjust to reject proofs and signs from God after they have reached their soul and it's been made clear to them.

 

[ananda]

Relying on the Taghut (false idol) through passion of the self and orienting one towards their desire is not much better if at all then relying on leaders as idols, but that is a different conversation.

And who is more unjust than he who follows his passion with other then God's guidance when God's guidance has become readily available and who more unjust to reject proofs and signs from God after they have reached their soul and it's been made clear to them.

How did your god prove his omnipotence, omniscience, etc. to your soul?

 

[AskTheFamily]

How did your god prove his omnipotence, omniscience, etc. to your soul?

Through his proof.

 

[TheOldWays]

Relying on the Taghut (false idol) through passion of the self and orienting one towards their desire is not much better if at all then relying on leaders as idols, but that is a different conversation.

Passion for oneself and seeking out your goals and desires are the path to god.

 

[AskTheFamily]

But in that your passion for yourself must be by choosing God as the best reward and realizing what is best for yourself not by conjecture but by truth. And that needs reasoning and reflection to be guided by guidance from God.

 

[ananda]

Through his proof.

What proof would that be?

 

[AskTheFamily]

What proof would that be?

That which perfectly proves the existence of an absolute being and leads towards him on the path of truth and lights the way out of the darkness as well manifests the way once a person is in the light.

It is what when one is lost on how to act, will guide them, and one who reflects will download them the proper information, it is a sure means to knowledge and wisdom, and safety from the paths of destruction.

It is the eyes by which we are to rely on for perception, the means to recite the book properly, and it's light is all from a revelation from God and is connection by which the scriptures of God can truly be recited and appreciated in various levels, at various points in the journey.

It is the weapon to cut off falsehood, the reliable support by which to take refuge in God.

It is the driver and navigator of the souls of our time to the proper destination they are meant for.

It is the star in the dark night that we are reminded of a higher path, the moon when one is journeying by which one makes it out of the darkness, the sun when one has made it to the light by which one perceives things in truth and is safe in certainty.

 

[ananda]

That which perfectly proves the existence of an absolute being and leads towards him on the path of truth and lights the way out of the darkness as well manifests the way once a person is in the light.

It is what when one is lost on how to act, will guide them, and one who reflects will download them the proper information, it is a sure means to knowledge and wisdom, and safety from the paths of destruction.

It is the eyes by which we are to rely on for perception, the means to recite the book properly, and it's light is all from a revelation from God and is connection by which the scriptures of God can truly be recited and appreciated in various levels, at various points in the journey.

It is the weapon to cut off falsehood, the reliable support by which to take refuge in God.

It is the driver and navigator of the souls of our time to the proper destination they are meant for.

It is the star in the dark night that we are reminded of a higher path, the moon when one is journeying by which one makes it out of the darkness, the sun when one has made it to the light by which one perceives things in truth and is safe in certainty.

I don't see how that proves its omniscience, omnipotence.

 

[AskTheFamily]

I don't see how that proves its omniscience, omnipotence.

What prove it if is true?

 

[ananda]

What prove it if is true?

Nothing I can think of, short of possessing omniscience myself.

Without omniscience, I cannot verify and prove another being's claim to omniscience or omnipotence.