Time for the truth 7

[Wordkeeper]

Actually Israel's role was not to give the law to the world, it already had it pre engraved on every heart.

Israel's role was of Oracle bearer, prophet, advertising agency. Suppose an ad agency landed the publicity campaign for the 1phone10. It's job would be to hand out pre launch hoopla about the product. It would simplify every buyer's life. Connect it to your laptop and it would skim through your data and set your life in order: answer your correspondence, pay your bills, set up your appointments, plan your holidays, etc.

After the launch, another contract would be given, to convince people to buy the product and make it a part of their lives: 1phone10 implementer, evangelist, marketing agency. It's job would be to explain the post launch features of the product. They would teach buyers to format their data so that the phone would find it recognizable, configure their printer and their calendar so that they would spit out soft and hard copy reminders, tabulate theirr clients and their vendors so that they would be set up to buy from or sell to them, make their work and their leisure activities organised, streamlined, easier.

Israel's job was to manifest the coming of the kingdom of Heaven, the gospel. One of the features of the KoH was the benefit it would give, the Sabbath. Observing the Sabbath was a preview of what Heaven would look like! It was a reversal of the curse placed on Adam, that of extracting lifegiving produce by the sweat of his brows! On the Sabbath, God would miraculously provide without labor on the part of man! Since heaven is so wonderful, healing was also done without labor from man! That's why the Sabbath served man, not vice versa! The Levites and the King were God's arms in Israel, allowed to do God's work.

After the ushering in of the KoH (through the Cross), Abraham's Seed is given the job of evangelizing the KoH, implementing it in the lives of believers.

Matthew 6:25“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27“And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? 28“And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

I repeat:

Israel is the Oracle bearer.

Abraham's Seed is the Oracle implementer.

One looked to a future, coming event and prophesied, described it .

The other looked at a passed, completed event and evangelised (praised) and lived it.

One can not reject the ten commandments just because it was given to the Jews. For Paul says. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2. The Ten commandments was give through them but not for them only. Some body had to receive it.

 

[listed]

Ask for the Holy Spirit. It's the only way to avoid hearing the words, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you breakers of the law".

Thanks you for telling me and others to basically ignore you and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. You are both leading in different directions.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Thanks you for telling me and others to basically ignore you and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. You are both leading in different directions.

Yes the spiritual appeal argument again aka "I've got the Holy Spirit and you don't" insinuation.

 

[listed]

Yes the spiritual appeal argument again aka "I've got the Holy Spirit and you don't" insinuation.

I have been manipulated by that 1 to many times and now recognized it immediately as nothing more that an effort to bring me under control and subjection to another for self aggrandizement. Makes them feel important and superior. Jesus said they have their reward.

 

[VictorC]

Where does it say in Romans 2 that the gentiles did not keep the Sabbath?

One can not reject the ten commandments just because it was given to the Jews. For Paul says. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2. The Ten commandments was give through them but not for them only. Some body had to receive it.

Who are under the law? Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19
According to Paul, all the world is under the law!

Just yesterday you posted a clear reference stating the Gentiles didn't have the Law and didn't (and don't) have the Sabbath:

...when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves...

So it is clear you've contradicted yourself. That alone causes others to dismiss what you post.
Adding insult to injury, you ignored the transition made immediately after Romans 3:19, which turns from the lost condition pronounced on everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, to present the solution provided by God:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

Your omission of 'therefore', 'but now', and 'at the present time' are not done in ignorance of this passage, as it has been shown to you before. These are pathological omissions that has become the leading characteristic of your posts, replaced with sheer nonsense replacing the inspired narrative.

 

[VictorC]

Thanks for wishing me luck. This is the fourth time I have posted this for Elder111.

Four times, and no answer.
Elder111 has shown me that he isn't really interested in learning anything from God's precious Word.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I have been manipulated by that 1 to many times and now recognized it immediately as nothing more that an effort to bring me under control and subjection to another for self aggrandizement. Makes them feel important and superior. Jesus said they have their reward.

Yup... gives one a sense of pride to play the Holy Spirit card upon ones opponent problem is the words spoken were Jesus' words not the Holy Spirit's.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Four times, and no answer.
Elder111 has shown me that he isn't really interested in learning anything from God's precious Word.

Most legalists are here to promote and teach, not to debate and learn.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Luke 11:13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

I have been manipulated by that 1 to many times and now recognized it immediately as nothing more that an effort to bring me under control and subjection to another for self aggrandizement. Makes them feel important and superior. Jesus said they have their reward.

Hey it's the only way to avoid unfavorable judgment, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you breakers of the law".

 

[Elder 111]

Just yesterday you posted a clear reference stating the Gentiles didn't have the Law and didn't (and don't) have the Sabbath:

So it is clear that you're lying with today's posts.
Adding insult to injury, you ignored the transition made immediately after Romans 3:19, which turns from the lost condition pronounced on everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, to present the solution provided by God:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

Your omission of 'therefore', 'but now', and 'at the present time' are not done in ignorance of this passage, as it has been shown to you before. These are pathological omissions that has become the leading characteristic of your posts, replaced with sheer nonsense replacing the inspired narrative.

The point, of the above mentioned verses, is that Jesus died for our sins and that all that come to Him in faith would have their sins forgiven. It is His dead that pays the penalty for our breaking the law. There is no implication that the ten commandments are removed or are unnecessary for the christian. His righteousness is imputed on our behave. As a matter fact the context verifies the Ten commandments are binding on Christians, because it shows that because we break them ( For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;) we need and have the Blood of Jesus to cover us.
1 John 1:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[VictorC]

The point, of the above mentioned verses, is that Jesus died for our sins and that all that come to Him in faith would have their sins forgiven. It is His dead that pays the penalty for our breaking the law. There is no implication that the ten commandments are removed or are unnecessary for the christian. His righteousness is imputed on our behave. As a matter fact the context verifies the Ten commandments are binding on Christians, because it shows that because we break them (For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God) we need and have the Blood of Jesus to cover us.

What I bolded above is (yet) another unBiblical claim, and you never responded to my questions from a previous post asking what attribute Jesus showed that isn't found in the Law. Face it: you didn't respond to the content of my post here any better than the last one, and your claim that the Gentiles had/have the Law and the Sabbath is dead since you abandoned it.

1 John 1:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Why did you quote a passage from John's epistle that condemns the thesis you're promoting? He documented the commandments of God, and they don't include the Mosaic covenant nor the Sabbath contained in it. In fact, God's propitiation demonstrates your claim above "the Ten commandments are binding" is false. And, using a plural verb in your claim shows that after all this time you still don't know what the Ten Commandments was. You also show that verbal tenses indicated by 'therefore', 'but now', and 'at the present time' have no meaning to you.

Address content, instead of writing personal attacks that don't support your opinions.

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON






A lot of sniping going on. Either get back on topic, or we will close the thread.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[VictorC]

MOD HAT ON


A lot of sniping going on. Either get back on topic, or we will close the thread.

MOD HAT OFF

My opinion is that this thread should be closed. The frustration that comes with dealing with posts that never address content manifests in the kind of posts that aren't expedient in the final analysis.

 

[Sophrosyne]

My opinion is that this thread should be closed. The frustration that comes with dealing with posts that never address content manifests in the kind of posts that aren't expedient in the final analysis.

I say let the threads stay.... all of them as people interested in the truth will find it in them even if they have to sift through a lot or propaganda and out of context theology along with endless cut and pastes instead of using logic based upon the bible itself we have promotion of someone else's beliefs as your own.

 

[VictorC]

I say let the threads stay.... all of them as people interested in the truth will find it in them even if they have to sift through a lot or propaganda and out of context theology along with endless cut and pastes instead of using logic based upon the bible itself we have promotion of someone else's beliefs as your own.

Well, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place: We keep having to remind the OP's author that he isn't promoting the commandments of God with his effort to revert to the old covenant. On the other hand, this continual reminder is more than redundant and is personalized by necessity of the individual addressed. This doesn't sit well with the moderation staff. The call for accountability on the part of an individual who initiated this thread has probably satisfied the lurkers for the most part. The individual is going to continue ignoring posts that he has no answer for - and bury them in hopes the lurkers never see them. I think locking up the thread is prudent at this juncture.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Well, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place: We keep having to remind the OP's author that he isn't promoting the commandments of God with his effort to revert to the old covenant. On the other hand, this continual reminder is more than redundant and is personalized by necessity of the individual addressed. This doesn't sit well with the moderation staff. The call for accountability on the part of an individual who initiated this thread has probably satisfied the lurkers for the most part. The individual is going to continue ignoring posts that he has no answer for - and bury them in hopes the lurkers never see them. I think locking up the thread is prudent at this juncture.

Locking threads won't accomplish much if the OP can just open another one and get the same attention perhaps even more. Lets face it unless it goes to a more formal type debate which would require more training and intelligence on behalf of the moderators here to ascertain proper debate and throw out those who refuse to adhere to it we are stuck with all sorts of tactics that are used to evade one belief while promoting an opposing one.

 

[VictorC]

Locking threads won't accomplish much if the OP can just open another one and get the same attention perhaps even more.

That was already tried - the new thread used to circumvent moderator action to close the 'time for the truth 4' thread was closed the same day, as soon as the staff spotted it. That precedent is already established.

Lets face it unless it goes to a more formal type debate which would require more training and intelligence on behalf of the moderators here to ascertain proper debate and throw out those who refuse to adhere to it we are stuck with all sorts of tactics that are used to evade one belief while promoting an opposing one.

The moderators try their best to keep their hands off of discussion. When they intervene, it is because nothing else will restore the civility they're commissioned to maintain. Accountability to content is another entity altogether, and moderating that in the content of posts may or may not go beyond their commission. It takes much more time and effort, which is in little supply.

 

[Sophrosyne]

That was already tried - the new thread used to circumvent moderator action to close the 'time for the truth 4' thread was closed the same day, as soon as the staff spotted it. That precedent is already established.

The moderators try their best to keep their hands off of discussion. When they intervene, it is because nothing else will restore the civility they're commissioned to maintain. Accountability to content is another entity altogether, and moderating that in the content of posts may or may not go beyond their commission. It takes much more time and effort, which is in little supply.

I think the only way we will get rid of the law promotion is to have it be considered unorthodox to Christianity. I consider that mandatory lawkeeping is unorthodox myself... voluntary lawkeeping I can accept per Paul's writings.

 

[VictorC]

I think the only way we will get rid of the law promotion is to have it be considered unorthodox to Christianity. I consider that mandatory lawkeeping is unorthodox myself... voluntary lawkeeping I can accept per Paul's writings.

We already know that 'voluntary' isn't according to the soteriology Adventism has codified in their writings. And, I agree with your point - I've submitted my opinion to staff to point out there exists a chasm between claiming to be Christian and meeting the litmus test CF adopted with the Nicene creed. I think we both recognize a problem the staff hasn't found a means to resolve yet.

 

[Sophrosyne]

We already know that 'voluntary' isn't according to the soteriology Adventism has codified in their writings. And, I agree with your point - I've submitted my opinion to staff to point out there exists a chasm between claiming to be Christian and meeting the litmus test CF adopted with the Nicene creed. I think we both recognize a problem the staff hasn't found a means to resolve yet.

I have a feeling that the problem will persist. At least things are better than with a previous owner where anyone could spout off anything about God and the Bible and hide behind a Christian icon protecting themselves from angst. I can live with things the way they are here let these legalists keep proclaiming the same tired refuted arguments over and over while we have freedom to operate outside of the Law and not receive damnation for it.