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Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

Gary K

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Ah so they're applied to all the sunday Christians then.

Did you imagine that you could make me mad and thus make a hypocrite out of me? Sorry, but it won't work because Jesus is so much greater than the devil? He loves both of us enough to die for us when we were still His enemies so how can I be angry with or dislike anyone He died for? You're my brother in Christ.
 
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ozso

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Did you imagine that you could make me mad and thus make a hypocrite out of me? Sorry, but it won't work because Jesus is so much greater than the devil? He loves both of us enough to die for us when we were still His enemies so how can I be angry with or dislike anyone He died for? You're my brother in Christ.
I'm just discussing denominational doctrine.
 
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Gary K

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I'm just discussing denominational doctrine.
How does that have anything to do with Moses' prophecies about God punishing the the Israelites for disobeying them? Explain exactly what you're talking about. What denominational doctrine, specifically?
 
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ozso

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How does that have anything to do with Moses' prophecies about God punishing the the Israelites for disobeying them? Explain exactly what you're talking about. What denominational doctrine, specifically?
It seems to me that when a remnant is spoken of in scripture, that's interpreted in SDA doctrine as pertaining to Christian sabbitarians. Usually Revelation 12:17 is used as the proof text for that, but I've seen OT verses used as well. Like you said, it's a matter of doing a word search for "remnant" and then choosing whichever verses that can be used as proof texts to support a doctrine. Especially a doctrine that says everyone else is in serious error and or under Satan's spell regarding what's supposed to be a critical matter that doctrine is founded upon. Like say the group that says the only Christians who are truly baptized, are the ones who were baptized in the name of Jesus only.
 
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Gary K

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It seems to me that when a remnant is spoken of in scripture, that's interpreted in SDA doctrine as pertaining to Christian sabbitarians. Usually Revelation 12:17 is used as the proof text for that, but I've seen OT verses used as well. Like you said, it's a matter of doing a word search for "remnant" and then choosing whichever verses that can be used as proof texts to support a doctrine. Especially a doctrine that says everyone else is in serious error and or under Satan's spell regarding what's supposed to be a critical matter that doctrine is founded upon. Like say the group that says the only Christians who are truly baptized, are the ones who were baptized in the name of Jesus only.
***grins***

I see. So looking up the word remnant in the OT for fulfillment of Moses' prophecies is searching for something to do with the new covenant? Interesting reasoning you're using..
 
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ozso

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***grins***

I see. So looking up the word remnant in the OT for fulfillment of Moses' prophecies is searching for something to do with the new covenant? Interesting reasoning you're using..
Only if that's what's being done. Is this a situation where you talked about you personally looking up some scripture, and I was viewing it as a corporate thing, so when I talk about it, it seems to you that I'm attacking you personally?
 
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Gary K

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Only if that's what's being done. Is this a situation where you talked about you personally looking up some scripture, and I was viewing it as a corporate thing, so when I talk about it, it seems to you that I'm attacking you personally?
When have I ever made a personal attack on you or anyone else that disagrees with me here?
 
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HIM

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Is that based on an eisegesis of Revelation 12:17?

No it is based on the history of God's people as recorded in the OT. Due to stiff necks and hard hearts it has only been a small few in any given time throughout history out of those who profess.

And there is Jesus' own words also.

Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. KJV
Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. KJV
Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, KJV
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. KJV



Rev 12:17 is an interesting text though. What do you see? Remnant means remaining ones by the way.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. KJV
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. KJV
 
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HIM

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When have I ever made a personal attack on you or anyone else that disagrees with me here?
Nowhere that I can remember. Personal attacks are against forum rules. But they are not always un-loving therefore un-Christian. Sometimes they are warranted and need stated. And sometimes what is perceived as an attack isn't. But they are against forum rules. So if we do we must suffer the consequences.
 
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Leaf473

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When and why? I would say it was because the non Adventist people were being rude. I've even complained about that, but not to moderators.
I don't remember the time or thread title. I haven't spent a lot of time there. Why go and do things that are clearly against the rules?

It's kind of like speeding in a car. Maybe you do it 100 times, and no one seems to care. Then you're surprised one day when you actually get a ticket :D

"In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against this group's theology."

Why the resistance to talking about SDA things in a place designed to examine them critically?
 
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Leaf473

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ozso

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When have I ever made a personal attack on you or anyone else that disagrees with me here?
Good golly there's a miscommunication situation going on. I was thinking maybe you thought I was attacking you, not the other way around.
 
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ozso

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No it is based on the history of God's people as recorded in the OT. Due to stiff necks and hard hearts it has only been a small few in any given time throughout history out of those who profess.

And there is Jesus' own words also.

Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. KJV
Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. KJV
Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, KJV
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. KJV



Rev 12:17 is an interesting text though. What do you see? Remnant means remaining ones by the way.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. KJV
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. KJV
There's two ways to view scripture like that.

It can be viewed as believers vs unbelievers.

Or it can be viewed as some small group are the only real Christians and all the others are false christians because they don't follow that small group's theology.
 
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Leaf473

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When and why? I would say it was because the non Adventist people were being rude. I've even complained about that, but not to moderators.

Why the resistance to talking about SDA things in a place designed to examine them critically?
As a follow-up, here's what I'm talking about.


The place where we are now is for talking about the Sabbath in the law in general terms. If we want to critically examine specifically the SDA's, I'd recommend the DST above.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No. What you will find is that many SDA's are well versed in scripture. In fact, we used to be known as "the people of the book" until the denomination began to drift away from it's first love with Jesus.
I find this post really disappointing for a few reasons. You seem to be condemning 22 million people that you claim drifted away from its first love with Jesus is judging 22 million people that you do not know. Only Jesus knows the hearts of all people so we need to leave the judging with Christ. The second reason this is disappointing is you claim to be representing the SDA church yet, you seem to condemn it more than support. I already offered a link to the official beliefs, because I have seen too many people who claim to be SDA, but yet have their own doctrine, which essentially makes one a false witness. What separates denominations is doctrine and personally I would not be associated with a denomination if I thought it drifted away from loving Jesus, what would that say about me. My experience for the most part in the SDA church has been finding loving people who love Jesus and seek Him fully and seek His Truth. Are there bad apples in every denomination and in every congregation, yes, we are warned those who claim to be part of our organization will do the most harm.

I also disagree that the SDA church doesn't teach righteousness by faith. Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

This is just one pastor but do a search on righteousness by faith and you will find 10 pages of various sermons.

Another from YouTube


From the Official Adventist Sabbath School study


In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, Substitute and Example. This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God’s grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God’s sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 45:22; Isa. 53; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 33:11; 36:25-27; Hab. 2:4; Mark 9:23, 24; John 3:3-8, 16; 16:8; Rom. 3:21-26; 8:1-4, 14-17; 5:6-10; 10:17; 12:2; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Gal. 1:4; 3:13, 14, 26; 4:4-7; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 1:13, 14; Titus 3:3-7; Heb. 8:7-12; 1 Peter 1:23; 2:21, 22; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rev. 13:8.)
 
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Valletta

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I have another book on the subject of the corruption of the RCC. This was written by a Scottish minister in the 1800s and traces out the origins of the RCCs theological roots. This is the most thoroughly documented book I have ever read on the origins of paganism.

Here is a link to a free pdf download.

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing. These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics “adore statues”; because they “put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God”; because they say “indulgence is a permission to commit sin”; because the Pope “is a Fascist”; because the “Church is the defender of Capitalism.” If the Church taught or believed any one of these things it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do."
Bishop Fulton Sheen

As to what Catholics really believe, here is a link: Catechism of the Catholic Church
 
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ozso

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"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing. These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics “adore statues”; because they “put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God”; because they say “indulgence is a permission to commit sin”; because the Pope “is a Fascist”; because the “Church is the defender of Capitalism.” If the Church taught or believed any one of these things it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do."
Bishop Fulton Sheen

As to what Catholics really believe, here is a link: Catechism of the Catholic Church
To me what's important is what Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and Protestants denominations believe and teach about Christ. My guess is if you and I just talked about what we believe about Christ, we would be in agreement.
 
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Valletta

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Indeed, for God who is so far above us to come down to earth to live and die with us. And to love us so much in spite of our sins that He has prepared a place for us with Him for all of eternity.
 
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