Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

[HIM]

I don't see it in Deuteronomy 30:10-14. That references the book of the law that Moses wrote, which contains the terms of the Covenant that God made with Israel when they came out of Egypt.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 30:10-14 - New International Reader's Version

But you must obey the LORD your God. You must keep his commands and rules. They are written in this Book of the Law. You must turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Choose Life, Not Death - What I’m commanding you today is not too hard for you. It isn’t beyond your...

www.biblegateway.com

Well it is there. Deut 29:1 is where a new covenant is being stated and 30:10-14 is it Being that you don’t see t there is no real reason for me to continue with you. Take care

 

[Leaf473]

Well it is there. Deut 29:1 is where a new covenant is being stated and 30:10-14 is it Being that you don’t see t there is no real reason for me to continue with you. Take care

The reason to continue talking is because it's a discussion forum. I'll talk about the law with atheists.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 6:7 - New Living Translation

Repeat them again and again to your children. Talk about them when you are at home and when you are on the road, when you are going to bed and when you are getting up.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 17:18 - New Living Translation

He also had a debate with some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. When he told them about Jesus and his resurrection, they said, “What’s this babbler trying to say with these strange ideas he’s picked up?” Others said, “He seems to be preaching about some foreign gods.”

www.biblegateway.com

__________________
There may be a new covenant in Deuteronomy 29, but it is not the New Covenant talked about in Jeremiah/Hebrews

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 29:1 - New Living Translation

These are the terms of the covenant the LORD commanded Moses to make with the Israelites while they were in the land of Moab, in addition to the covenant he had made with them at Mount Sinai.

www.biblegateway.com

The one prophesied by Jeremiah was still future in Jeremiah's time

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 31:31 - New Living Translation

“The day is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[ozso]

12

The writings of the early Christians make it clear that Christians abandoned the Jewish custom of worship on the Sabbath (seventh day) and instead held the first day, which they called the Lord's Day, to be the sacred day of worship. One of the simplest explanations on the subject comes from Tertullian, around 200 AD:

But why is it, you ask, that we gather on the Lord's Day to celebrate our solemnities? Because that was the way the Apostles also did.
-- De Fuga in Persecutione, XIV: 11

This was not an innovation of the second century AD, as a full century earlier, (101 AD,) we find Ignatius saying:

Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day on which our life was sprung by him and his death.
-- Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 9

And just in case there is any confusion as to the identity of the Lord's Day, we can turn to Justin Martyr. (140 AD)

And on the day which is called Sunday there is an assembly in the same place of all who live in cities or in country districts; and the records of the apostles, or the writings of the prophets, are read as long as we have time.

Read further here:

Did the first Christian believers keep the Sabbath and if so on which day?

According to Colossians, there appears to be some disagreement amongst the first century church on whether to keep the Sabbath: Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you ea...

christianity.stackexchange.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

12

The writings of the early Christians make it clear that Christians abandoned the Jewish custom of worship on the Sabbath (seventh day) and instead held the first day, which they called the Lord's Day, to be the sacred day of worship. One of the simplest explanations on the subject comes from Tertullian, around 200 AD:

This was not an innovation of the second century AD, as a full century earlier, (101 AD,) we find Ignatius saying:

And just in case there is any confusion as to the identity of the Lord's Day, we can turn to Justin Martyr. (140 AD)


Read further here:

Did the first Christian believers keep the Sabbath and if so on which day?

According to Colossians, there appears to be some disagreement amongst the first century church on whether to keep the Sabbath: Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you ea...

christianity.stackexchange.com

If you wish to follow man over the commandments of God, that is a choice one can make- Jesus tells us to make a different choice though Matthew 15:3-9 which is why one always has to go outside of scripture to quote Sunday sacredness - because God deemed it a day to do work and labors. Exodus 20:9 and only deemed one day His holy day, the same day He command for us to keep holy because we are made in His image to follow Him. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13

 

[ozso]

If you wish to follow man over the commandments of God, that is a choice one can make- Jesus tells us to make a different choice though Matthew 15:3-9 which is why one always has to go outside of scripture to quote Sunday sacredness - because God deemed it a day to do work and labors. Exodus 20:9 and only deemed one day His holy day, the same day He command for us to keep holy because we are made in His image to follow Him. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13

If one wants to disregard what the church fathers wrote, then they should start with their letters that the Catholic Church put into the Bible they complied.

In the beginning the only church of Christ was the Catholic Church. And the earliest decrees, doctrines and decisions of how Christianity was to operate was determined by the men who were put in charge of the Church such as Peter, John, Paul, Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp etc.

The significance of the early church father's writings regarding Sunday assembly and worship, is that it proves that it goes back to the beginning, way before Constantine was born, and before the formation of the Roman Catholic Church.

Which means Ellen White's claim about Sunday assembly and worship having been started by Constantine in 321 and it being the Mark of the Beast is all wrong. And therefore subsequently her doctrine regarding Christianity and the Sabbath is all wrong as well.

 

[Leaf473]

Definitely follow God's word. But it's interesting to see how people so close to the time of the apostles interpreted what the apostles wrote.

If the Church turned away just a few years after the last apostle, where is the church that Jesus built, the one that would overwhelm the gates of hell?

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 3:15 - New Living Translation

so that if I am delayed, you will know how people must conduct themselves in the household of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[ozso]

If you wish to follow man...

Given the choice between going by the
men who were put in charge of the Church such as Peter, John, Paul, Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp etc say. And going by what Ellen White came up with many centuries later. I'll go with the first church fathers.

 

[Leaf473]

One might also ask where the true church is in history. Seventh day observers say that there have been people worshiping on the seventh day throughout history. Assuming that's true, there would be more: in order to qualify as the true church, they would also have to be eating only clean foods, according to most Seventh-Day observers.

One could also wonder, then, why when interest in the seventh day picked up a lot of speed in the 1800s, why the proponents didn't join the remnant church already in existence.

 

[ozso]

Definitely follow God's word. But it's interesting to see how people so close to the time of the apostles interpreted what the apostles wrote.

The funny thing is that the writings of the church fathers that's called scripture, is only called scripture because the Catholic Church added those particular letters into their compilation that we call the Bible.

If the Church turned away just a few years after the last apostle, where is the church that Jesus built, the one that would overwhelm the gates of hell.

That's a pretty bad situation since the church fathers were made the church fathers by the apostles.

Now I agree that the church started coming up with disagreeable things around five centuries down the road. But to say the original government of the church by the apostles and their chosen immediate successors, was without authority from God and corrupt, is to say the gates of hell did prevail against Christ's church shortly after he ascended into heaven.

And moreover the church remained corrupted until God appointed a 19th century American prophet to restore the church. That's the claim of Joseph Smith and his church of the Latter Day Saints.

 

[Leaf473]

The funny thing is that the writings of the church fathers that's called scripture, is only called scripture because the Catholic Church added those particular letters into their compilation that we call the Bible.

That's a conundrum that I realized for myself when I wanted to use the Bible only. Without input from Christian leaders from the first few centuries, it's up to each individual to pick for themselves the table of contents of the Bible. Book of Enoch? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[ozso]

One might also ask where the true church is in history. Seventh day observers say that there have been people worshiping on the seventh day throughout history. Assuming that's true, there would be more: in order to qualify as the true church, they would also have to be eating only clean foods, according to most Seventh-Day observers.

One could also wonder, then, why when interest in the seventh day picked up a lot of speed in the 1800s, why the proponents didn't join the remnant church already in existence.

There wasn't one really except for the Seventh Day Baptists which was started in the 17th century by a group of men. Ellen White was influenced by them. In the beginning she didn't even know the Sabbath is from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. The so-called prophet had to be taught by men how it's supposed to work. Ellen White borrowed (some say plagiarized) quite a lot from the writings of men to cobble together her Seventh-day Adventist doctrine.

 

[ozso]

That's a conundrum that I realized for myself when I wanted to use the Bible only. Without input from Christian leaders from the first few centuries, it's up to each individual to pick for themselves the table of contents of the Bible. Book of Enoch? Maybe, maybe not.

Well I was referring to the New Testament Bible. If the Catholics incorporated those writings into their compilation, that's holy scripture. But all other writings by the founding church fathers has no authority because they weren't put into the Catholic compilation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If one wants to disregard what the church fathers wrote, then they should start with their letters that the Catholic Church put into the Bible they complied.

In the beginning the only church of Christ was the Catholic Church. And the earliest decrees, doctrines and decisions of how Christianity was to operate was determined by the men who were put in charge of the Church such as Peter, John, Paul, Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp etc.

The significance of the early church father's writings regarding Sunday assembly and worship, is that it proves that it goes back to the beginning, way before Constantine was born, and before the formation of the Roman Catholic Church.

Which means Ellen White's claim about Sunday assembly and worship having been started by Constantine in 321 and it being the Mark of the Beast is all wrong. And therefore subsequently her doctrine regarding Christianity and the Sabbath is all wrong as well.

I'm not sure if you noticed, I did, you did not quote scripture to support your post that the apostles profaned the Sabbath commandment and instead kept the first day holy. The apostles taught keeping the commandments of God is what matters 1 Cor 7:19 nor did they keep every Sunday, like they did for Sabbath keeping- preaching the Word of God every Sabbath to both Jews and Gentiles. Acts 18:4. All of your quotes come from outside of scripture which is exactly what we are warned about if it goes against the Word of God Isaiah 8:20. In scripture we are warned what would happen to the flock after the apostles died which is exactly what happened. Acts 20:29 How many millions of Christians were murdered by Rome- you might want to check your history. Ellen White did not write the Ten Commandment, God did and God is the one we all have to answer to. The mark of the beast did not come in 321 but that is when the Sabbath was changed to Sunday from sun worship and was now the official corporate day of worship changed by Constantine, just as predicted in scripture would happen. Daniel 7:25. The mark of the beast is about worship Rev 13, Rev 14 and we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit and all of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 the antidote for not receiving the mark of the beast Rev 14:11 is keeping the commandments of God Rev 14:12 the way God wrote them, not what was edited by man that we are warned not to do. Deut 4:2 Prov 30:5-6. The Son of Man will come and will be like the days of Noah Matthew 24:37 and not many believed then either compared to how many who were saved inside the ark. The Ten Commandments is God's holy commandments He personally wrote He spoke and are inside the ark that is in Heaven. Rev 11:19. There is no such commandment for thou shalt keep the first day holy, but there for the Sabbath day Exodus 20:8-11. We can either follow man or follow God.

 

[Leaf473]

Well I was referring to the New Testament Bible. If the Catholics incorporated those writings into their compilation, that's holy scripture. But all other writings by the founding church fathers has no authority because they weren't put into the Catholic compilation.

Right, I think I get what you're saying. The church that today we call the Catholic Church (or maybe Orthodox) compiled the New Testament.

If they had the authority to do that, it makes sense to listen to what they had to say about interpreting it.

If they didn't have that authority, then it's up to each individual to compile their own.

 

[ozso]

Right, I think I get what you're saying. The church that today we call the Catholic Church (or maybe Orthodox) compiled the New Testament.

Well it was the Universal (Catholic) Church of Christ when the Muratorian Canon, which is believed to date to 200 A.D., became the earliest compilation of canonical texts resembling the New Testament.

If they had the authority to do that, it makes sense to listen to what they had to say about interpreting it.

If they didn't have that authority, then it's up to each individual to compile their own.

Well that's the thing. Lots of anti-catholic Protestants don't acknowledge that what they call the Holy Scriptures of the Holy Bible, were separate gospels and epistles that the Catholics assembled to become that Holy Bible. So those going on about the lack of authority traditions of men are unwittingly discrediting the Bible.

 

[ozso]

I'm not sure if you noticed, I did, you did not quote scripture to support your post that the apostles profaned the Sabbath commandment and instead kept the first day holy.

All the New Testament scripture you're quoiting was written by the founding fathers of the church. And the only reason why you call that compilation of founding church fathers writings scripture, is because the men of the church canonized and compiled the New Testament you're quoting from.

The apostles taught keeping the commandments of God is what matters 1 Cor 7:19 nor did they keep every Sunday, like they did for Sabbath keeping- preaching the Word of God every Sabbath to both Jews and Gentiles. Acts 18:4. All of your quotes come from outside of scripture which is exactly what we are warned about if it goes against the Word of God Isaiah 8:20. In scripture we are warned what would happen to the flock after the apostles died which is exactly what happened. Acts 20:29 How many millions of Christians were murdered by Rome- you might want to check your history. Ellen White did not write the Ten Commandment, God did and God is the one we all have to answer to. The mark of the beast did not come in 321 but that is when the Sabbath was changed to Sunday from sun worship and was now the official corporate day of worship changed by Constantine, just as predicted in scripture would happen. Daniel 7:25. The mark of the beast is about worship Rev 13, Rev 14 and we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit and all of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 the antidote for not receiving the mark of the beast Rev 14:11 is keeping the commandments of God Rev 14:12 the way God wrote them, not what was edited by man that we are warned not to do. Deut 4:2 Prov 30:5-6. The Son of Man will come and will be like the days of Noah Matthew 24:37 and not many believed then either compared to how many who were saved inside the ark. The Ten Commandments is God's holy commandments He personally wrote He spoke and are inside the ark that is in Heaven. Rev 11:19. There is no such commandment for thou shalt keep the first day holy, but there for the Sabbath day Exodus 20:8-11. We can either follow man or follow God.

Again in choosing between the SDA jargon and interpretation you posted, and what the founding church fathers wrote, which includes the NT verses you quoted, I'm going to go with the founding church fathers who were the apostles and those directly taught by the apostles. I'm going to put 1st and 2nd century doctrine, theology and interpretation ahead of 19th century doctrine, theology and interpretation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

All the New Testament scripture you're quoiting was written by the founding fathers of the church.

It was written by the apostles with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. All scripture is God-breathed.

And the only reason why you call that compilation of founding church fathers writings scripture, is because the men of the church canonized and compiled the New Testament you're quoting from.

God gave us the scripture. He is in charge of His Word.

Again in choosing between your/SDA jargon, and what the founding church fathers wrote, which includes the NT verses you quoted, I'm going to go with the founding church fathers who were the apostles and those directly taught by the apostles. I'm going to put 1st and 2nd century doctrine, theology and interpretation ahead of 19th century doctrine, theology and interpretation.

The apostles kept the commandments of God, taught us to keep them, did not keep Sunday sacred, but kept every Sabbath.

You keep claiming the founding fathers (the Apostles) changed the Sabbath but yet can't find one quote showing this change from scripture, because it did not happen in scripture- something we were warned would happen though but not by God Dan 7:25, the apostles did not have the authority to countermand God, nor would they, which is why they advocated we keep the commandments of God which includes the Sabbath commandment. The devil has been deceiving the whole world for a very long time and has been an enemy over God's remnant people who keep the commandments of God Rev 12:17 KJV. Much of history has been re-written and if you want to place your trust in the catholic church narrative over God's Word, that's a choice one can make. My faith is in Jesus, who gave us His Word to be a light for our path Psalms 119:105 and warns us about changing and going outside of it. Isaiah 8:20 Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[trophy33]

You keep claiming the founding fathers (the Apostles) changed the Sabbath but yet can't find one quote showing this change from scripture, because it did not happen in scripture

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."
Col 2:16

It explicitly and literally says that Sabbath, together with rules about drinking and festivals, belonged to shadows, not to the reality in Christ.

Indeed, the SDA movement is here for quite some time so you have already come with your explanation of the verse ("Sabbath is not the Sabbath"), but thats just your explanation of what is in Scripture. Your argument, that its not in the Scripture, is therefore false.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."
Col 2:16

Sadly, this verse is used so much out of context by the mainstream Christians which never take the time to examine the scripture and try to make this fit to something it clearly doesn't, plus it doesn't match up with the rest of scripture. If the Sabbath ended, it would simply be called the seventh day, but it's not all throughout the entire bible, its called the Sabbath because it has the same respect that it always had and why the disciples kept the Sabbath long after the cross as Jesus expected Matthew 24:20 and why the Sabbath continues forever for eternity Isaiah 66:22-23. not something that will ever end from beginning before sin Genesis 2:1-3 for eternity.

I am sure the context will go on deaf ears, but I suggest those seeking for Truth prayerfully read it because without a doubt Col 2:16 is not referring to the weekly seventh day Sabbath commandment.

This 'handwriting of ordinances' our Lord did blot out, take away, and nail to His cross. (Colossians 2: 14.) But the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away.... The moral law stands on an entirely different foundation from the ceremonial or ritual law. ...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind and in all ages.
—JOHN WESLEY, Sermons on Several Occasions, 2-Vol. Edition, Vol. I, pages 221, 222.

If you back up to Col 2:14 KJV it makes this passage abundantly clear it is not referring to one of God's commandments. There is more than one Sabbath in the Bible. There is the weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God and part of God’s eternal Ten Commandments and the annual sabbath(s) that are the yearly feasts days and are ordinances. The weekly Sabbath came before sin Genesis 2:1-3 the annual sabbath(s) was because of sin- after the fall.

Col 2:14 KJV
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So we know this from Colossians 2:14:
1. They are handwritten
2. They are ordinances
3. They are contrary.

Does this fit the Sabbath commandment in any way? Absolutely not.
1. The Sabbath was finger-written by God (not by hand) Exodus 31:18 Exodus 32:16
2. The Sabbath is a commandment of God (not an ordinance). Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28
3. God said the Sabbath is holy and blessed (not cursed and contrary) Exodus 20:8-11 Genesis 2:1-3
Note: once God blesses something man cannot reverse it Num 23:20, so one would need a thus saith the Lord to do away with God's holy Sabbath day, which does not exist.

What Colossians 2:14 is referring to:

1. They are ordinances that have to do with sacrifices

Exodus 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover:
Ezekiel 43:18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it.

2. They were handwritten
2 Chronicles 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,

3. They were contrary
Deuteronomy 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

Context doesn't fit, yet people don't care, we are only sanctified by the Truth of God's Word and all of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151

 

[trophy33]

Sadly, this verse is used so much out of context by the mainstream Christians which never take the time to examine the scripture and try to make this fit to something it clearly doesn't, plus it doesn't match up with the rest of scripture. If the Sabbath ended, it would simply be called the seventh day, but it's not all throughout the entire bible, its called the Sabbath because it has the same respect that it always had and why the disciples kept the Sabbath and why the Sabbath continues forever for eternity Isaiah 66:22-23. not something that will ever end from beginning before sin Genesis 2:1-3 for eternity.

I am sure the context will go on deaf ears, but I suggest those seeking for Truth prayerfully read it because without a doubt Col 2:16 is not referring to the weekly seventh day Sabbath commandment.

If you back up to Colossians 2:14 it makes this passage abundantly clear it is not referring to one of God's commandments. There is more than one Sabbath in the Bible. There is the weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God and part of God’s eternal Ten Commandments and the annual sabbath(s) that are the yearly feasts days and are ordinances. The weekly Sabbath came before sin Genesis 2:1-3 the annual sabbath(s) was because of sin- after the fall.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So we know this from Colossians 2:14:
1. They are handwritten
2. They are ordinances
3. They are contrary.

Does this fit the Sabbath commandment in any way? Absolutely not.
1. The Sabbath was finger-written by God (not by hand) Exodus 31:18 Exodus 32:16
2. The Sabbath is a commandment of God (not an ordinance). Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28
3. God said the Sabbath is holy and blessed (not cursed and contrary) Exodus 20:8-11 Genesis 2:1-3

What Colossians 2:14 is referring to:

1. They are ordinances that have to do with sacrifices

Exodus 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover:
Ezekiel 43:18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it.

2. They were handwritten
2 Chronicles 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished,

3. They were contrary
Deuteronomy 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

As I said - its in Scriptures, but the SDA movement already invented a (complicated) explanation of it.

Which by itself proves its in Scriptures, or else you would not have a need to explain it.