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Thunder Lauriston lecture on "Why Sunday worship cannot be the Mark of the Beast"

Leaf473

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I don't get what you're getting at here. Most scholars consider Gospel of Barnabas to be a late medieval work, post-1300. So those Christians in Italy around 150 AD likely didn't ever see it.
I just picked a random work, the Epistle of Barnabas. I was originally thinking of the Epistle of Clement, but Barnabas popped up in my browser :D It's just an example.

To put it another way, go to this website and print out every document listed there. Put each document in its own pile on the floor or something. Then, without any help from the traditions of the Church, say which ones are scripture.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That's what I was told too, growing up :)

Let's look at it this way: the Bible that you have, did you compile it yourself, or did you get it somewhere like Zonderven?
The bible was written and compiled through the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16 Yes, the RCC got a hold of the scriptures and instead of sharing it like we are told to in scripture, it was locked up- called the dark ages, and through the Holy Spirit and the Reformers God's Word prevailed and how it was given to the masses. The RCC claim a lot of things, but most contradicts scripture, so not a reliable source if we are to trust God's Word.
 
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Leaf473

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The bible was written and compiled through the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16 Yes, the RCC got a hold of the scriptures and instead of sharing it like we are told to in scripture, it was locked up- called the dark ages, and through the Holy Spirit and the Reformers God's Word prevailed and how it was given to the masses. The RCC claim a lot of things, but most contradicts scripture, so not a reliable source if we are to trust God's Word.
Well, the scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, Yes.

The Bible that you use, where did you get it?
 
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ozso

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Who is the first church? It is made up of what is in scripture, not what was written outside of scripture. The church has always been established in the commandments of God and His Word, first church said it is what matters 1 Cor 7:19, first church kept every Sabbath Acts 18:4, the first church said the commandments of God and faith in Jesus shows the fruit of a saved person Revelation 14:12 and showing the commandments being kept until Jesus comes Revelation 22:14-15. Anything that contradicts this is not coming from God Isaiah 8:20 but "the other spirit" who has deceived the world and makes war with God's remnant people who keep the commandments of God from the beginning Revelation 12:17 KJV. We have to decide which side of the war we want to be on. The apostles warned us -For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock Acts 20:29 and this is who you want to put place your faith in, the ones the apostles warned us about, the ones who would think to change times and laws Dan 7:25. I place my faith in God's Word because outside of that there is no light Isaiah 8:20 Proverbs 30:5-6 so if you see contradictions between what is written in scripture and written outside, there are reasons for that, which is why we receive the warning so we won't be deceived, but not everyone has faith in God's Word because they have itching ears 2 Timothy 4:3
See you're just reposting what you already posted. 1 Cor 7:19 doesn't say to keep all of the old covenant commandments and show that the commandment of circumcision is one of God's commandments that isn't kept. But of course in SDA doctrine commandments only means the ten commandments, specifically sabbath keeping, which is incorrect. Acts 18:4 says that they reasoned with the Jews on the Sabbath, not they they themselves kept the Sabbath. It is SDA eisegesis you were taught that interprets that as saying that 1st century Christians kept the Sabbath. Revelation 14:12 is being used as a proof text about Christians keeping the Sabbath, but that's not what it's saying. Nor does Revelation 22:14-15 say that. Ellen White took passages out of the Bible that have the word "commandments" in them and made them about Christians keeping the sabbath. Acts 20:29 is not about the founding fathers of the church. Dan 7:25 is not about the 1st-2nd century church nor its first fathers. 2 Timothy 4:3 is not about the 1st-2nd century church Paul and Timothy were a part of. The writings of the church fathers of the 1st-2nd century church make it quite clear that the Apostles and their disciples chose Sunday as the Lord's Day to assemble and worship and no longer kept the Saturday sabbath of the old covenant. Using inapplicable Bible verses doesn't change that documented fact.
 
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Leaf473

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I'd say all of the writings by the first church fathers were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Very possibly, I was just trying to keep it as simple as possible.

I know what a startling - turn your world upside down - realization it can be when you learn the history of how we got the Bible.

 
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ozso

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I just picked a random work, the Epistle of Barnabas. I was originally thinking of the Epistle of Clement, but Barnabas popped up in my browser :D It's just an example.

To put it another way, go to this website and print out every document listed there. Put each document in its own pile on the floor or something. Then, without any help from the traditions of the Church, say which ones are scripture.
Does using eeny, meeny, miny, moe count?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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See you're just reposting what you already posted. 1 Cor 7:19 doesn't say to keep all of the old covenant commandments and show that the commandment of circumcision is one of God's commandments that isn't kept. But of course in SDA doctrine commandments only means the ten commandments, specifically sabbath keeping, which is incorrect. Acts 18:4 says that they reasoned with the Jews on the Sabbath, not they they themselves kept the Sabbath. It is SDA eisegesis you were taught that interprets that as saying that 1st century Christians kept the Sabbath. Revelation 14:12 is being used as a proof text about Christians keeping the Sabbath, but that's not what it's saying. Nor does Revelation 22:14-15 say that. Ellen White took passages out of the Bible that have the word "commandments" in them and made them about Christians keeping the sabbath. Acts 20:29 is not about the founding fathers of the church. Dan 7:25 is not about the 1st-2nd century church nor its first fathers. 2 Timothy 4:3 is not about the 1st-2nd century church Paul and Timothy were a part of. The writings of the church fathers of the 1st-2nd century church make it quite clear that the Apostles and their disciples chose Sunday as the Lord's Day to assemble and worship and no longer kept the Saturday sabbath of the old covenant. Using inapplicable Bible verses doesn't change that documented fact.
In order to make your argument work, you would need to prove the Sabbath is not a commandment of God.
One of the apostles of the first church recorded it as still being a commandment.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

God said it is a commandment quoting right from the unit of Ten Exodus 20:6 and Jesus said to keep the commandments of God quoting from the Ten over man's rules. Matthew 15:3-9

The apostles kept every Sabbath preaching God's Word Acts 18:4
The Gentiles begged for gospel preaching on the Sabbath instead of asking for day 1 preaching. Acts 13:42

You seem to be having a disagreement with the Text.
 
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ozso

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In order to make your argument work, you would need to prove the Sabbath is not a commandment of God.
No all I have to do is show proof that the Christian church starting with the Apostles eventually assembled and worshiped on Sunday, which they called the Lord's Day.
God said it is Exodus 20:6 and Jesus said to keep the commandments of God quoting from the Ten over mans rules. Matthew 15:3-9
In Matthew 15:3-9 Jesus isn't talking about the 4th commandment, he's talking about about the 5th commandment.
The apostles kept every Sabbath preaching God's Word Acts 18:4
The Gentiles begged for gospel preaching on the Sabbath instead of asking for day 1 preaching. Acts 13:42
No that's saying that starting out the Apostles went to the synagogue to reason with the Jews on the sabbath. What scripture tells us is that the Apostles eventually formed their own churches separate from the synagogues, and the first church fathers tell us that at that time the Apostles assembled and worshiped at their churches on Sunday, which they called the Lord's Day.
You seem to be having a disagreement with the Text.
Not at all, I just have disagreement with the SDA version of what the text says.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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No all I have to do is show proof that the Christian church starting with the Apostles eventually assembled and worshiped on Sunday, which they called the Lord's Day.
Not from scripture.
In Matthew 15:3-9 Jesus isn't talking about the 4th commandment, he's talking about about the 5th commandment.

No that's saying that starting out the Apostles went to the synagogue to reason with the Jews on the sabbath. What scripture tells us is that the Apostles eventually formed their own churches separate from the synagogues, and the first church fathers tell us that at that time the Apostles assembled and worshiped at their churches on Sunday, which they called the Lord's Day.

Not at all, I just have disagreement with the SDA version of what the text says.
The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten Deut 4:13, Exodus 32:16, God said no adding or subtracting from the commandment Deut 4:2 Jesus tells us not to break the least of the commandments again quoting from the Ten. Matthew 5:19-30. The Ten are in God's heavenly Temple unedited which is what the earthy temple was modeled after. Hebrews 8:5 Rev 11:19

You are free to believe what was written outside the bible trumps what is the inspired Word of God we have free will, despite the warning Isaiah 8:20 Proverbs 30:5-6.

We will just have to wait and find out, I guess. I would hate to be wrong. Revelation 22:14-15 1 John 2:4

Thanks for the chat. Take care
 
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Gary K

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Hi Gary K, I'm glad you stopped by :)

Do you believe the entire law of Moses can be reasonably separated into commandments and ordinances?

In a word, yes. The ten commandments were written by the finger of Jesus on Mount Sinai. Nothing else was written on those two tablets. There is zero Biblical evidence for that.
 
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ozso

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We will just have to wait and find out, I guess. I would hate to be wrong. Revelation 22:14-15 1 John 2:4
Yep all of Christianity for 2000 years is going to suffer the fate of Revelation 22:15 for not being sabbitarians.
 
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Leaf473

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Leaf473

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The bible was written and compiled through the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16 Yes, the RCC got a hold of the scriptures and instead of sharing it like we are told to in scripture, it was locked up- called the dark ages, and through the Holy Spirit and the Reformers God's Word prevailed and how it was given to the masses. The RCC claim a lot of things, but most contradicts scripture, so not a reliable source if we are to trust God's Word.
I agree that the Bible was written and compiled through the Holy Spirit.

Now... Did God use humans in the process of writing the Bible? Sure! Who? Well, people like Peter and Paul.

Did God use humans in the process of compiling the Bible? Sure! Who?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yep all of Christianity for 2000 years is going to suffer the fate of Revelation 22:15 for not being sabbitarians.
God just wants to spend time with His people on the day He sanctified, blessed and made holy. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, just like the other 9. We have the choice to keep or not keep. We are not saved by law-keeping we are saved by the blood of Jesus through our faith Those who have faith, have a different walk than those who don't Revelation 14:12. We can trust the scripture and its warnings or not, the choice is ours to make.
 
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Gary K

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No all I have to do is show proof that the Christian church starting with the Apostles eventually assembled and worshiped on Sunday, which they called the Lord's Day.

In Matthew 15:3-9 Jesus isn't talking about the 4th commandment, he's talking about about the 5th commandment.

No that's saying that starting out the Apostles went to the synagogue to reason with the Jews on the sabbath. What scripture tells us is that the Apostles eventually formed their own churches separate from the synagogues, and the first church fathers tell us that at that time the Apostles assembled and worshiped at their churches on Sunday, which they called the Lord's Day.

Not at all, I just have disagreement with the SDA version of what the text says.
Where is that verified in the Bible?

It's not. When John on the isle of Patmos talks about the Lords day there is no evidence that what most modern day Christians call the Lord's day is what day John was referring to as he kept the Sabbath. Jesus says that the son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath in reference to Himself. Luke 6:5

Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I see the argument a lot that we were just commanded to rest on the Sabbath but the fourth commandment blows that reasoning out of the water, and the verse I quoted from Exodus means the Isrealites knew about the Sabbath before the 10 commandments were given on Sinai.
 
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Valletta

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Well, the scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, Yes.

The Bible that you use, where did you get it?

The bible was written and compiled through the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16 Yes, the RCC got a hold of the scriptures and instead of sharing it like we are told to in scripture, it was locked up- called the dark ages, and through the Holy Spirit and the Reformers God's Word prevailed and how it was given to the masses. The RCC claim a lot of things, but most contradicts scripture, so not a reliable source if we are to trust God's Word.
We should be so thankful to all of those Catholics who preached and preserved the Bible to all of the people throughout the Dark Ages. Remember too that a great many Catholics translated Biblical text into the common languages of the people, even though for most of the history of Christianity the majority of people were illiterate. After Latin surpassed Greek as the common language of the people, the Latin Vulgate under the direction of Saint Jerome became by far the standard Bible. "Vulgate" comes from "vulgar" or "common," meaning the common language of the people. Eventually Latin morphed into various languages such as Italian, Spanish, and French, and then came more translations by Catholics. There were Catholic translations of Biblical text in French, Bohemian, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, and Norwegian as well. In England long before Wycliffe and Tyndale, there were many translations of Biblical text by Catholics. To mention just a few of them, Venerable Bede, a Catholic monk, is perhaps the best known for his translation in the 700s. King Alfred the Great had not finished his translation of Psalms before he died, that would have been in the 800s. Now a lot of Biblical texts by Catholics have been destroyed, remember Protestants in England seized Catholic monasteries and gave the land to wealthy Protestants and much that was Catholic was sold off or destroyed. But some do exist, you can find some of Alfred’s translations in a manuscript dated as around 1050. These are in the English of the Saxons: The Illustrated Psalms of Alfred the Great: The Old English Paris Psalter When the Normans took over the English changed, the paraphrase of Orm is dated around 1150 and is an example of a Catholic translation into Middle English. Eventually a Catholic named Gutenberg introduced the printing press, and, of course, the first book he printed was the Bible in 1455. Finally, Catholic teaching is 100 percent compatible with the Bible.
 
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Leaf473

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We should be so thankful to all of those Catholics who preached and preserved the Bible to all of the people throughout the Dark Ages. Remember too that a great many Catholics translated Biblical text into the common languages of the people, even though for most of the history of Christianity the majority of people were illiterate. After Latin surpassed Greek as the common language of the people, the Latin Vulgate under the direction of Saint Jerome became by far the standard Bible. "Vulgate" comes from "vulgar" or "common," meaning the common language of the people. Eventually Latin morphed into various languages such as Italian, Spanish, and French, and then came more translations by Catholics. There were Catholic translations of Biblical text in French, Bohemian, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, and Norwegian as well. In England long before Wycliffe and Tyndale, there were many translations of Biblical text by Catholics. To mention just a few of them, Venerable Bede, a Catholic monk, is perhaps the best known for his translation in the 700s. King Alfred the Great had not finished his translation of Psalms before he died, that would have been in the 800s. Now a lot of Biblical texts by Catholics have been destroyed, remember Protestants in England seized Catholic monasteries and gave the land to wealthy Protestants and much that was Catholic was sold off or destroyed. But some do exist, you can find some of Alfred’s translations in a manuscript dated as around 1050. These are in the English of the Saxons: The Illustrated Psalms of Alfred the Great: The Old English Paris Psalter When the Normans took over the English changed, the paraphrase of Orm is dated around 1150 and is an example of a Catholic translation into Middle English. Eventually a Catholic named Gutenberg introduced the printing press, and, of course, the first book he printed was the Bible in 1455. Finally, Catholic teaching is 100 percent compatible with the Bible.
This just popped into my head, the King James translators made heavy use of the Greek manuscript compiled by Erasmus, a Catholic. The Holy Spirit did use humans to compile the Bible!
 
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Gary K

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This just popped into my head, the King James translators made heavy use of the Greek manuscript compiled by Erasmus, a Catholic. The Holy Spirit did use humans to compile the Bible!
That is untrue. Read D'Abigne's 1400+ page multi-volume tome on the reformation. It took him 55 years to publish all of it from the date the date the first book of it was published to the date the last book was published. You can download it from Project Gutenberg.

Erasmus was a Protestant but a fearful one who refused to stand up and be counted.
 
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