Three Versions - Same Verse = Different Meanings

[Laurie KRB]

Why does it seem that parts of the Bible seem to contradict other parts? God is NOT the author of confusion, so what is going on?

From what I understand, the Hebrew text translators had clarification difficulties with the difference between

1) God ALLOWING
vs.
2) God CAUSING

when writing/translating the Old Testament. Since God created everything, including physics, the Hebrew writers/translators tended to give God credit (or blame) for allowing things to happen.

It is something called "permissive" verbs, or something. What is it? Here is a great example from my favorite OT writer, isaiah:

(1) Isaiah 6:8-10 HCSB

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying: Who should I send? Who will go for Us?

I said: Here I am. Send me.

And He replied: Go! Say to these people:

Keep listening, but do not understand; keep looking, but do not perceive. Dull the minds of these people; deafen their ears and blind their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their minds, turn back, and be healed.

What it SOUNDS like, is God telling Isaiah that He will cause the Israelites to become dull, deaf, blind, and sick.

But when we go to the New Testament, we get a different view of things. This is Jesus, quoting THAT SAME VERSE:

(2) Matt 13:11-15 HCSB

He answered them, "Because the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given for you to know, but it has not been given to them. For whoever has, [more] will be given to him, and he will have more than enough. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. For this reason I speak to them in parables, because looking they do not see, and hearing they do not listen or understand.

Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says:

You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive.

For this people's heart has grown callous; their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn back—and I would cure them.

Huh?

But the meaning is a LOT different, isn't it? We learn from Jesus that GOD is NOT the one blinding people's eyes to the truth. Often they have chosen to disregard the truth themselves, have turned away from God for their own reasons.

So rather than God causing them to turn from Him, He was simply telling what He knew they would do. He knows what we will do, too, but that doesn't mean He's making us do it. He has created us with free will.

Here's another version of that verse, this one from Paul:

(3) Acts 28:26-28 HCSB

Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement:

"The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers when He said,

Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted—and I would heal them.

Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"

So we see again that God did NOT cause them to misunderstand Him. He saw it before it happened, but He always lets us make our own decisions. God will also always work everything out for good: since the Israelites turned from His healing grace, it was offered to the Gentiles whom Paul predicted WOULD hear the words of the Lord, turn and receive the healing offered to them.

One more explanation from Paul about being blinded to the truth:

2 cor 4:3-6 HCSB

But if, in fact, our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. Regarding them: the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

If any blinding is being done, let's place the blame where it belongs: on the 'god of this age'. Satan, the one who steals, kills and destroys.

Peace, Saints!

 

[Elijah2]

Hey Laurie,

It's become normal thing now that we are in the latter days.

There are people out there who believe that they can do a better job than what God's inspired writerswho put together in GOD's INSPIRED WORDS.

Yep, if there was a word they didn't like, they would delete them. And if the verse might convict them they would twist it around so that it sounded better to them and made them feel more comfortable in the comfort zone.

Give it another five years and you will be reading the new age gospel of religion.

Why we need so many perverted, distorted, rearranged, misrepresented, and watered-down versions of KJV, and then to have to put up with all these so-called paraphrased versions because they believe they can produce a user-friendly version of God's Word. And then the one that takes the BOOBY Price, The Message, well no wonder the Body of Christ is confused, and mislead, and new Christians don't know the reall GOOD NEWS.

Take care.
Love in Christ

 

[Laurie KRB]

Hi Elijah2 -

I hope you're wrong about that new age translation!

Regarding the translations, I do LOVE the Holman (HCSB) and the English Standard (ESV).

They are both NEWER translations and the authors have taken great trouble to go to the original documents and make the translation as accurate as possible, with footnotes on questionable wording.

You bring up an interesting point, though. We should always let the Spirit guide us, on all things. I think it was Peter (?) who said that we should learn to "properly divide the word of truth", which means there can be a wrong way.

If something doesn't quite seem right, like a loving God blinding people's eyes (something in me just KNEW that couldn't be right), then we should pray about it, ask for guidance (the Spirit of Truth is here to help guide us into all truth), and study the word.

The truth sets us free, but it is up to us to learn to follow the Spirit's guidance, even when we study the word of God. YES, it IS the inspired word of God, but...

When man is involved, things sometimes get a little messed up.

We are told ALL through the Bible to let 2 or 3 witnesses decide the truth. If you only have something from one writer or one witness, it might not be exactly as God meant it.

I hope I have not confused anyone; I mean only to get you to pray and ask for guidance on all things, rather than just taking things at face value. Often things are not as they seem.

Peace, saints.

 

[Elijah2]

Geneva Bible:
"But I say unto you, whosoever is angry with his brother unadvisedly, shall be culpable of judgment..."

KJV:
"But I say unto you, that woseover is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgment...."

NKJV:
"But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..."

NIV:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment..."

Now you can see that the NIV omitted "unadvisedly/without a cause".

And the ASV also omitted them as well.

Now by removing those words, the NIV is saying that our Lord Jesus Christ will be judged, because HE was angry with the people in the temple! Even though his anger was "with a cause".

Now there are hundreds perversions, distortions, additions and subtractions from His Inspired Word. The Geneva Bible and the KJV are as authentic as can be taken, and the KJV is the authorised version.

There is much on the internet in regards to all of these anomolies in all translations and parphrases.

Take care.
love in CHrist

 

[LifeInChrist]

Great Post and Great Inferences imo!

Lord bless you.

 

[Laurie KRB]

Great Post and Great Inferences imo!

Lord bless you.

Thank you, and thanks to all who have read and responded here.

May you all continue to grow in the knowledge of God and His will for your lives.

 

[JPPT1974]

May God work in your life as well my friend!

 

[RedheadedPrincess]

Geneva Bible:
"But I say unto you, whosoever is angry with his brother unadvisedly, shall be culpable of judgment..."

KJV:
"But I say unto you, that woseover is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgment...."

NKJV:
"But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..."

NIV:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment..."

Now you can see that the NIV omitted "unadvisedly/without a cause".

And the ASV also omitted them as well.

Now by removing those words, the NIV is saying that our Lord Jesus Christ will be judged, because HE was angry with the people in the temple! Even though his anger was "with a cause".

Now there are hundreds perversions, distortions, additions and subtractions from His Inspired Word. The Geneva Bible and the KJV are as authentic as can be taken, and the KJV is the authorised version.

There is much on the internet in regards to all of these anomolies in all translations and parphrases.

Take care.
love in CHrist

Elijah2 you say that the KJV is authorized, but by who and how? I have heard your line of thinking many times, but in Bible college I learned that the KJV is not the most accurate version to the original Greek. The NASV is one of the closest to Greek around. However, if we really want a good version, we should look at the actual Greek and use Greek dictionaries. It takes more time, but it is way worth it.

 

[Laurie KRB]

Elijah2 you say that the KJV is authorized, but by who and how? I have heard your line of thinking many times, but in Bible college I learned that the KJV is not the most accurate version to the original Greek. The NASV is one of the closest to Greek around. However, if we really want a good version, we should look at the actual Greek and use Greek dictionaries. It takes more time, but it is way worth it.

I use the English Standard Version (ESV) and the Holman Christian Standard (HCSB). They are both very recent translations, which I think works well because they are able to use computers and language translations which - to me! - are more accurate to the original meanings.

Of course you still can't be 100% sure because sometimes even my footnotes state "original Hebrew meaning unclear" a lot. But that's why Jesus sent back His Holy Spirit -- to guide us into all the truth.

His Spirit will let you know if something isn't quite right -- no matter where it is coming from or where you are.

 

[Sennaria]

His Spirit will let you know if something isn't quite right -- no matter where it is coming from or where you are.

I agree, I prefer the NKJV but I don't rely on it soley. When I run across major differences in a verse that changes the meaning of the verse, then I do two things. I go to the original Greek or Hebrew word and research it out myself and I take it to God to lead me into the correct meaning as I'm not smart enough to be able to discern it myself. Thankfully, it doesn't happen very often that I have found anyway where the verse is totally changed.

And let the whole Earth Praise God!
Sennaria

 

[JPPT1974]

I have the KJV and the NIV as sometimes
You have to read the NIV without the thee and thou
But I keep the KJV in order to have the thee and thou
In what they lived through in those times.

 

[Forealzchola]

God's word does not contradict itself. God bless

 

[Elijah2]

God's word does not contradict itself. God bless

True words, but sadly misguided interpretators do, particularly those who think they can do a better job than God, such as Eugene Peterson, and his perverted, watered-down version called "The Message".

Bless you!

 

[Laurie KRB]

In class we are now studying the New Testament, the historical setting, the authors, and background.

Since this thread is meant to clarify some of the misunderstandings that can arise when trying to interpret the Old Testament (especially the translation problems from Hebrew to English), I thought this excerpt would be helpful:

Brief Review

When we start trying to interpret the teachings that we have in the writings of Paul and the other epistles, we need to have a good understanding of the backdrop from which they were written.

1. Paul (and other writers) assume that we understand the OT as a final authority -- that Christianity is simply the fulfillment of all the OT. He uses much OT imagery (priesthood, sacrifices, etc.) and scriptural phrasing.

Paul frequently quotes the OT without explanation or apology.

- Victory Bible Institute
Off Campus Course Study
New Testament Survey 2
Lesson 2 *The End-time Epistles, Page 2

Just a reminder: please read the OT passages in context, making sure to find out to whom the writings were addressed.

Don't make the mistake of thinking God is mad at you -- He loves you.

Also, please keep everything within the larger context of the entire Bible: About halfway through, things change dramatically.

(That is, Christ comes in to fulfill all the requirements of the Law, changing everything for all time, for all who will accept His redeeming work on the cross.)

It is difficult to study only the New Testament and still get a complete picture of all that Father is trying to tell us. The "big picture" comes only when we see the Bible as a whole letter from our Maker.

Peace, Saints!

 

[heymikey80]

Both views are being assessed by the whole of Scripture. God hardens. People harden, too.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Rom 9:16-18
​

This isn't really a great place for debating an issue so heavily embedded in different theologies. But it seems to me any theology should be prepared for God hardening as well as people hardening.

 

[Laurie KRB]

Since I haven't studied the Hebrew language well enough to make a sound argument regarding causitive and passive verb forms when translating into English, the most I can hope for is that some will consider that God does NOT "harden" hearts against Him, and offer the following scriptures to back up the ones I have already posted.

James 1:13 NIV

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Strong's Number: 4645

Browse Lexicon ​

Original Word
Word Origin
sklhruvnw
from (4642)
Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry
Skleruno
5:1030,816
Phonetic Spelling
Parts of Speech
sklay-roo'-no http://bible1.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=4645g
Verb

Definition

1. to make hard, harden
2. metaph.
   1. to render obstinate, stubborn
   2. to be hardened
   3. to become obstinate or stubborn

KJV Verse Count
Greek Word: Sklhruvnw
Transliterated Word: skleruno
Book to Display: Hebrews
Verse Count: 4

​

Heb 3:8​

Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:13​

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:15​

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 4:7​

Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Ac 19:9​

But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Again, I believe that the difficulty lies in the difference between

What God allows
vs.
What God causes

Peace, Saints!

 

[heymikey80]

Since I haven't studied the Hebrew language well enough to make a sound argument regarding causitive and passive verb forms when translating into English, the most I can hope for is that some will consider that God does NOT "harden" hearts against Him, and offer the following scriptures to back up the ones I have already posted.Again, I believe that the difficulty lies in the difference between

What God allows
vs.
What God causes

Peace, Saints!

Well, Greek has active and passive verb forms, and Paul used Greek in Romans 9. So that makes it fairly clear what Paul is getting at, as I mentioned before.

I appreciate your interest in this point, it would be good to investigate it in more detail. This issue gets discussed on Soteriology forum on occasion, too.

 

[Laurie KRB]

Thanks for the info - I'll check into it. You are absolutely right -- I was considering delving into the study of the original languages in order to understand this issue more clearly and I plan to, soon.

To me, something is clearly out of place:

The premise that God would

1) Take away a person's free will to choose good over evil

and

2) Actually cause a person to sin against His word

contradict almost the entire message of the Bible.

We see some evidence of the answer, though. Even the verses I began with on the first post show the discrepancy between three different writer's versions of the same incident, leading to identifing the cause as one of a translation difficulty.

From what I have learned, in Jesus' time the world was using the Greek version of the OT (septuagint), but Paul was brought up in the jewish education system, studying under the Pharisees, which probably included the Hebrew versions as well.

This bears much more study and prayer, and I thank you for your response.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, SAINTS!