Threatening??

[Jane_the_Bane]

2) i'm going to be honest, using your version will defeat me because it seems to me that the jews changed these keywords (virgin,and the other Isiah verse of 'mighty God')because of fear of these verses talking about Jesus.

Are you for real? The scriptures in question were around LONG before the New Testament was penned. Their exact wording is known and hasn't been changed. It is only in later, Christian translations into other languages such as Greek, Latin, or (much later) English that the "young woman" of the Hebrew version became a "virgin".

 

[b&wpac7]

a) but how do you know that when it says in the same image it is also speaking of us having a spirit and having a soul as Him?

Actually, I tend to believe it means that we were given the ability to reason.

2) i'm going to be honest, using your version will defeat me because it seems to me that the jews changed these keywords (virgin,and the other Isiah verse of 'mighty God')because of fear of these verses talking about Jesus.

First, claiming that we changed the words is amusing. The text you quoted used young woman, who changed it now? The other verse is Isaiah is a matter of translation. I have heard that it can work both ways. How do we know you didn't change it to speak of Jesus?

Second, forget the word virgin. It isn't the point of my discussion. The prophecy is given by Isaiah to Ahaz for a specific purpose. Read the entire chapter. It isn't about a child 600 years in the future, it's about a child coming soon so that Ahaz will know his kingdom is safe.

 

[kranberrydude]

a) but how do you know that when it says in the same image it is also speaking of us having a spirit and having a soul as Him?

2) i'm going to be honest, using your version will defeat me because it seems to me that the jews changed these keywords (virgin,and the other Isiah verse of 'mighty God')because of fear of these verses talking about Jesus.

There's another discrepancy here.

Who will call him Immanuel? Isaiah says she, the mother of the child, will. Matthew says they will. Who is they? We know that Mary didn't call him Immanuel, Mary called him Jesus (Yeshua, whatever).

Good point, but still he was called immanuel, shouldn't jews acknowledge that?

 

[b&wpac7]

Good point, but still he was called immanuel, shouldn't jews acknowledge that?

Ok, he was called Immanuel. So?

Hezekiah means God is mighty. Is Hezekiah God too?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Good point, but still he was called immanuel, shouldn't jews acknowledge that?

Was he? There's only one verse in the entire New Testament that claims as much, and that one is clearly attempting to "fulfill" that specific interpretation of the prophecy.

 

[hikersong]

a)
2) i'm going to be honest, using your version will defeat me because it seems to me that the jews changed these keywords (virgin,and the other Isiah verse of 'mighty God')because of fear of these verses talking about Jesus.

I've got no particular axe to grind but there are some funny posts on here today. You're saying that the Jews (from whom the Christian OT originates) have changed their own scripture, presumably after hundreds of years of the original existing, in order to stop a possible interpretation that might support a christian theology point of view. When did this happen? Who changed it? Why?

I'm not a history or archaeological buff,so who knows, you might be right. But I can't see for the life of me why the Jews would be bothered to do that.

 

[If Not For Grace]

If we could go back to Jordon's orginal question--oh well then no, I think if anybody
reads the last couple of pages of posts-all that is seems to be going on here is a bunch of quibbling over "names" & who could/could not possibly be something or the
other-JordonD:

Can you see now how non-believers can feel like "chirstians" beat them over the head? This bunch is too busy beating each other over the head w/various theologies & calling each other liars to even see your issue- SADDDDD

 

[b&wpac7]

I've got no particular axe to grind but there are some funny posts on here today. You're saying that the Jews (from whom the Christian OT originates) have changed their own scripture, presumably after hundreds of years of the original existing, in order to stop a possible interpretation that might support a christian theology point of view. When did this happen? Who changed it? Why?

I'm not a history or archaeological buff,so who knows, you might be right. But I can't see for the life of me why the Jews would be bothered to do that.

It's the same line of thinking that gets people saying that Jews are forbidden from reading parts of their own Bible such as Isaiah 53, or that we don't read Isaiah 53 in synagogues during services on purpose.

The first is completely wrong and just silly.

As to the second one, we only read a very small selection of any of the writings of the prophets. We read them for a specific purpose. They either relate to the Torah portion of the week or they relate to the specific time of year. They were setup hundreds of years before Jesus.

It's easier to say "you changed it" than to address the points.

 

[kranberrydude]

at the end of the day when you face God, there will be only one truth and if you don't know that truth you'll have no more chance to accept that truth, Yeshua said he was the truth.

here are the prophecies fulfilled:

YouTube - ‪Prophecies of Jesus Christ‬‏

 

[b&wpac7]

Can you see now how non-believers can feel like "chirstians" beat them over the head? This bunch is too busy beating each other over the head w/various theologies & calling each other liars to even see your issue- SADDDDD

Actually, I think I've done the OP a great service. Why does it get hostile?

Missions don't usually LISTEN to what people have to say. It isn't important to them. So, people eventually get annoyed with the act.

 

[b&wpac7]

at the end of the day when you face God, there will be only one truth and if you don't know that truth you'll have no more chance to accept that truth, Yeshua said he was the truth.

See, when reasoning fails, the threats of Hell begin.

here are the prophecies fulfilled:

I've seen these lists before. They are rather unconvincing. I can personally debunk most of them.

 

[angelA18]

See, when reasoning fails, the threats of Hell begin.


I've seen these lists before. They are rather unconvincing. I can personally debunk most of them.

Yeah just positive thinking to people.

 

[b&wpac7]

Yeah just positive thinking to people.

The trick is to actually read the surrounding text and, if you can't read the original language, read as many different translations as well as literal translations as you can.

 

[Gardenia]

Missions don't usually LISTEN to what people have to say. It isn't important to them. So, people eventually get annoyed with the act.

This is exactly why I find the last half(ish?) of this thread to be a perfect illustration of the points brought up at the start. It's not that people find Christianity threatening, it's that sometimes Christians can act offensive, annoying, or dismissive with particular tactics.

 

[b&wpac7]

This is exactly why I find the last half(ish?) of this thread to be a perfect illustration of the points brought up at the start. It's not that people find Christianity threatening, it's that sometimes Christians can act offensive, annoying, or dismissive with particular tactics.

Yeah, this whole thing started with me saying "I asked God, I got put on this path" with a bunch of posts basically telling me I was wrong, wasn't patient enough, will learn the truth later, or other stuff.

To anybody who wants to share the Gospel:

Do not treat people that way. It is dismissive of what they have gone through and is arrogant.

 

[kranberrydude]

Yeah, this whole thing started with me saying "I asked God, I got put on this path" with a bunch of posts basically telling me I was wrong, wasn't patient enough, will learn the truth later, or other stuff.

To anybody who wants to share the Gospel:

Do not treat people that way. It is dismissive of what they have gone through and is arrogant.

i have to admit i didn't treat you right and i'm sorry for that, arguments don't convice people, only God can do that with His spirit through one. I didn't portray God's love as i should, and sorry for me trying to make you swallow my beliefs, i'm still firm on Jesus being the truth though. I believe sometimes one wants to prove one's point and not God's, i should just present the gospel with respect (which seems like i didn't), and then if you don't believe it i shouldn't force you. Only i can share my belief,testimony and pray for you.
God will do the work. I shouldn't do God's work. Sorry guys, the last thing i want to is to make you hate christianity more.

 

[b&wpac7]

i have to admit i didn't treat you right and i'm sorry for that, arguments don't convice people, only God can do that with His spirit through one. I didn't portray God's love as i should, and sorry for me trying to make you swallow my beliefs, i'm still firm on Jesus being the truth though. I believe sometimes one wants to prove one's point and not God's, i should just present the gospel with respect (which seems like i didn't), and then if you don't believe it i shouldn't force you. Only i can share my belief,testimony and pray for you.
God will do the work. I shouldn't do God's work. Sorry guys, the last thing i want to is to make you hate christianity more.

The thing is that I'm probably the worst type of person a Christian could ever try to convince. I am a very thorough studier. I know why I believe what I believe and can go find the information when requested. I know my biblical reasons. I know why I don't accept Jesus as messiah, not some vague sense that it just isn't what Jews do.

I'm not going to be swayed by most of the various proof texts used because I have done my own research and found why I reject those. In short, I'm not an easy nut to crack. I also find it very annoying when people tell me that my search was in some way lacking. That I didn't try hard enough or haven't gone far enough. I don't presume that you are wrong on your path, I would ask you don't presume I am wrong on mine. I certainly don't believe you should become a Jew and am quite content with people being Christians.

I apologize for being short with you a few times. It can be frustrating hearing the same dismissive responses to your personal story, which is why I tried to show you how it felt when they were lobed back.

 

[Gardenia]

Sorry guys, the last thing i want to is to make you hate christianity more.

I can't speak for b&wpac7 (or anyone else here, of course) - but I don't hate Christianity after this thread, and I didn't hate it before. Some tactics can push non-Christians away from listening to the Christian, but don't assume that a non-Christian automatically hates Christianity, God, or Jesus. Not believing in something doesn't equal hating something.
Just something to keep in mind... because if you go into a conversation assuming the other person is hateful, it can cause you to be more offensive (or defensive) right off the bat, neither of which is good for a real conversation.

It's okay to share your beliefs and testimony with people, and some people won't want to hear it at all (and that should be respected), but for those who do - don't be afraid to have a real conversation with them. No one likes the one sided preaching thing, but if you talk to them and really listen to what they're saying and show 'em a bit of respect... well, they may not convert, but they'll remember a good conversation, and you'll gain a better idea of where other people are coming from, which can always be helpful.
(Edit: Oh, and it's also helpful to remember that sometimes you will encounter non-Christians who believe in what they do as strongly as you believe in Christianity.)

 

[kranberrydude]

@b&wpac7
i understand; one should present God's love not one's point. will surely pray for you. if i don't show love, my many words are in vain. Shalom!

@Gardenia,
thanks for the advice.

 

[b&wpac7]

i understand; one should present God's love not one's point. will surely pray for you. if i don't show love, my many words are in vain. Shalom!

Well, we can still have discussions if you'd like. I enjoy a good debate that doesn't turn into fighting. Perhaps we could even erase that idea that the Jews changed their scripture to prevent a possible connection to Jesus.