Thoughts on the "Wrath of God"

[KevinT]

I just did a quick search for the word "wrath," specifically God's wrath, and I found 175 matches in the Bible. I'll include a few sample ones below. Comments below.

• Numbers 16:46 -- Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. **wrath** has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.”
• 1 Samuel 28:18 -- Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce **wrath** against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today.
• 2 Samuel 6:8 -- Then David was angry because the Lord’s **wrath** had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.
• Psalm 2:12 -- Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his **wrath** can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
• Psalm 6:1 -- Lord, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your **wrath**.
• Psalm 7:11 -- God is a righteous judge, a God who displays his **wrath** every day.
• Psalm 21:9 -- When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The Lord will swallow them up in his **wrath**, and his fire will consume them.
• Psalm 38:3 -- Because of your **wrath** there is no health in my body; there is no soundness in my bones because of my sin.
• Psalm 59:13 -- consume them in your **wrath**, consume them till they are no more. Then it will be known to the ends of the earth that God rules over Jacob.
• Psalm 69:24 -- Pour out your **wrath** on them; let your fierce anger overtake them.
• Proverbs 22:14 -- The mouth of an adulterous woman is a deep pit; a man who is under the Lord’s **wrath** falls into it.
• Isaiah 63:6 -- I trampled the nations in my anger; in my **wrath** I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”
• Jeremiah 21:12 -- This is what the Lord says to you, house of David: “‘Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed, or my **wrath** will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.
• Lamentations 3:1 -- I am the man who has seen affliction by the rod of the Lord’s **wrath**.
• Ezekiel 7:8 -- I am about to pour out my **wrath** on you and spend my anger against you. I will judge you according to your conduct and repay you for all your detestable practices.
• Daniel 8:19 -- He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of **wrath**, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.
• John 3:36 -- Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s **wrath** remains on them.
• Romans 2:5 -- But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up **wrath** against yourself for the day of God’s **wrath**, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
• Romans 13:4 -- For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of **wrath** to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
• Romans 4:15 -- because the law brings **wrath**. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
• Ephesians 5:6 -- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s **wrath** comes on those who are disobedient.
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10 -- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming **wrath**.
• Revelation 6:16 -- They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the **wrath** of the Lamb!
• Revelation 14:10 -- they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his **wrath**. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

My thoughts:

• Wrath, in my mind, is strongly linked with "anger." And anger seems linked to irrational behavior, as in "I'm so angry right now, I can't see straight." Dictionary definitions include "an intense emotional state induced by displeasure," "strong vengeful anger or indignation," "strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire." This doesn't seem to match the typical portrayal of Jesus as "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild."
  
  
• Jesus is described as rescuing us from coming wrath. 1 Thess 1:10: "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming **wrath**." But who is the source of this wrath? Most texts attribute the wrath to "God', but Rev 6:16 says “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" So we have Jesus (the lamb) rescuing us from the wrath of the lamb. Jesus rescues us from the wrath of Jesus. The only sense I can make of this is that there are phases. First Jesus is encouraging and teaching, but at some point he becomes the judge and punisher.
  
  
• It seems I have been presented with the image of an angry Father God who wants to punish mankind, but Jesus stands as a mediator who satisfies the anger of God. But this is not consistent with [John3:16]: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. And [John 16]: I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. And [John 14]: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
  
  
• So if we don't have God the Father and God the Son at odds with each other, setting a legal dispute, then what really is the wrath really about?
  
  
• I have been entertaining an idea that the "Wrath of God", can be considered to be a result of natural consequences. God sets up a natural, physical law of gravity, and when we trip and fall, we suffer the wrath of God when we cry from the pain of a skinned knee. When we fall into the clutches of the adulterer, we suffer the consequences as catch herpes and deal with that pain, and when we fail to pay attention to all God's other teaching, then we will fall into the traps and pits that Satan has set out for us. Yes the pain and suffering of that skinned knee come from God, but so also does He enable us to learn how to run and not stumble. Another example might be huge waves on the beach -- all a result of God's physical laws. They have the power crush and kill a person, but a skilled surfer uses this same power to have fun, with amazing results.
  
  
• One problem with my wrath<-->natural consequences theory is that natural laws don't seem to have any arbitrariness to them. They are always the same, and are not negotiable. Gravity is the same yesterday and today. But the "wrath" mentioned above often is the result of a decision from God. As when Uzzah touched the ark. 2 Samuel 6:8 -- "Then David was angry because the Lord’s **wrath** had broken out against Uzzah..." So I think my theory needs to be further fleshed out.

What are your thoughts?

 

[RandyPNW]

My thoughts:

• Wrath, in my mind, is strongly linked with "anger." And anger seems linked to irrational behavior, as in "I'm so angry right now, I can't see straight." Dictionary definitions include "an intense emotional state induced by displeasure," "strong vengeful anger or indignation," "strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire." This doesn't seem to match the typical portrayal of Jesus as "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild."

God's anger is not irrational--it is His word of justice, attempting to reconcile the sinful world with His righteousness.

Most texts attribute the wrath to "God', but Rev 6:16 says “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" So we have Jesus (the lamb) rescuing us from the wrath of the lamb. Jesus rescues us from the wrath of Jesus.

No, Jesus rescues the repentant from wrath designed to punish sinners. When we repent we escape wrath that would've been directed against us, had we decided not to repent.

What are your thoughts?

God wants us to know that He is not oblivious to what is going on on earth with respect to sin and social injustice. He is angry about it and will deal with it. But He is patient, allowing for people to amend their ways and choose to repent.

When we repent we become new people who are free from the anger God has towards those who live a selfish life. So God's anger is explained as directed towards those who insist on living in opposition to God's word. When we repent we choose to live in accord with God's word, and are liberated from a life that would suffer God's anger.

 

[fhansen]

I just did a quick search for the word "wrath," specifically God's wrath, and I found 175 matches in the Bible. I'll include a few sample ones below. Comments below.

• Numbers 16:46 -- Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. **wrath** has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.”
• 1 Samuel 28:18 -- Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce **wrath** against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today.
• 2 Samuel 6:8 -- Then David was angry because the Lord’s **wrath** had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.
• Psalm 2:12 -- Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his **wrath** can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
• Psalm 6:1 -- Lord, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your **wrath**.
• Psalm 7:11 -- God is a righteous judge, a God who displays his **wrath** every day.
• Psalm 21:9 -- When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The Lord will swallow them up in his **wrath**, and his fire will consume them.
• Psalm 38:3 -- Because of your **wrath** there is no health in my body; there is no soundness in my bones because of my sin.
• Psalm 59:13 -- consume them in your **wrath**, consume them till they are no more. Then it will be known to the ends of the earth that God rules over Jacob.
• Psalm 69:24 -- Pour out your **wrath** on them; let your fierce anger overtake them.
• Proverbs 22:14 -- The mouth of an adulterous woman is a deep pit; a man who is under the Lord’s **wrath** falls into it.
• Isaiah 63:6 -- I trampled the nations in my anger; in my **wrath** I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”
• Jeremiah 21:12 -- This is what the Lord says to you, house of David: “‘Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed, or my **wrath** will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.
• Lamentations 3:1 -- I am the man who has seen affliction by the rod of the Lord’s **wrath**.
• Ezekiel 7:8 -- I am about to pour out my **wrath** on you and spend my anger against you. I will judge you according to your conduct and repay you for all your detestable practices.
• Daniel 8:19 -- He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of **wrath**, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.
• John 3:36 -- Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s **wrath** remains on them.
• Romans 2:5 -- But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up **wrath** against yourself for the day of God’s **wrath**, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
• Romans 13:4 -- For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of **wrath** to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
• Romans 4:15 -- because the law brings **wrath**. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
• Ephesians 5:6 -- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s **wrath** comes on those who are disobedient.
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10 -- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming **wrath**.
• Revelation 6:16 -- They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the **wrath** of the Lamb!
• Revelation 14:10 -- they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his **wrath**. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

My thoughts:

• Wrath, in my mind, is strongly linked with "anger." And anger seems linked to irrational behavior, as in "I'm so angry right now, I can't see straight." Dictionary definitions include "an intense emotional state induced by displeasure," "strong vengeful anger or indignation," "strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire." This doesn't seem to match the typical portrayal of Jesus as "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild."
  
  
• Jesus is described as rescuing us from coming wrath. 1 Thess 1:10: "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming **wrath**." But who is the source of this wrath? Most texts attribute the wrath to "God', but Rev 6:16 says “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" So we have Jesus (the lamb) rescuing us from the wrath of the lamb. Jesus rescues us from the wrath of Jesus. The only sense I can make of this is that there are phases. First Jesus is encouraging and teaching, but at some point he becomes the judge and punisher.
  
  
• It seems I have been presented with the image of an angry Father God who wants to punish mankind, but Jesus stands as a mediator who satisfies the anger of God. But this is not consistent with [John3:16]: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. And [John 16]: I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. And [John 14]: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
  
  
• So if we don't have God the Father and God the Son at odds with each other, setting a legal dispute, then what really is the wrath really about?
  
  
• I have been entertaining an idea that the "Wrath of God", can be considered to be a result of natural consequences. God sets up a natural, physical law of gravity, and when we trip and fall, we suffer the wrath of God when we cry from the pain of a skinned knee. When we fall into the clutches of the adulterer, we suffer the consequences as catch herpes and deal with that pain, and when we fail to pay attention to all God's other teaching, then we will fall into the traps and pits that Satan has set out for us. Yes the pain and suffering of that skinned knee come from God, but so also does He enable us to learn how to run and not stumble. Another example might be huge waves on the beach -- all a result of God's physical laws. They have the power crush and kill a person, but a skilled surfer uses this same power to have fun, with amazing results.
  
  
• One problem with my wrath<-->natural consequences theory is that natural laws don't seem to have any arbitrariness to them. They are always the same, and are not negotiable. Gravity is the same yesterday and today. But the "wrath" mentioned above often is the result of a decision from God. As when Uzzah touched the ark. 2 Samuel 6:8 -- "Then David was angry because the Lord’s **wrath** had broken out against Uzzah..." So I think my theory needs to be further fleshed out.

What are your thoughts?

Consider this. There’s a difference between righteous indignation/moral outrage, and the irrational anger that is based on pride and selfishness. Jesus’ anger was always “pure”, based appropriately on opposition to evil.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I just did a quick search for the word "wrath," specifically God's wrath, and I found 175 matches in the Bible. I'll include a few sample ones below. Comments below.

What are your thoughts?

I like the way you questioned the matters for sure.

There is no logical way to pit God and Jesus against each other in regards to wrath. So that angle is out.

One party always seems to be missing in the analysis of these matters. Guess who?

Mark 4:15 shows us that the tempter is within and has access to both heart and mind of all, other than Jesus of course.

So if you re-examine the wrath scriptures with that fact in mind an entirely different picture will develop.

All have sin, Romans 3:9
Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

Any believer should know we engage the tempter internally, in our own minds. Where then is the location of the tempter? That answer should be very obvious, that is, if we accept what Jesus said in Mark 4:15 is actually true for us and we also recognize our own experiences with temptations/the tempter-withIN.

Paul showed us that evil was present with him. Romans 7:21
Paul had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh, 2 Cor 12:7
Paul had temptation in his flesh, Gal 4:14
Paul even defined his post salvation state as "I am" the chief of sinners, 1 Tim 1:15

Was Paul only viewing himself then, in these equations? Nope. He clearly targets our enemy, and we should as well.

One of the promises of the Gospel is that Satan will be bruised under our own feet:

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

I'd suggest that "wrath" will hit a lot closer to home than most are able to see

BUT it won't be a bad thing, for people. Especially not believers

Rev is about the final destruction of the devil and his messengers, not people.

In Rev 5:13 we see how it all kicks off, and it is entirely pleasant and even joyful to contemplate

No blood and guts of mankind required

 

[Hawkins]

Again, ancient humans lack the ability to convey a truth (of any kind). That's actually why the Noah story turned out to be the myths in the different cultures. Ancient humans inevitably will turn facts/truths into myths during the process of conveying through generations.

God has to train up Israel to convey His truth faithfully. Wrath is to show Israel that God has zero tolerance on the mistakes made by Israel, as Israel's mistakes will affect the salvation of the whole mankind.

 

[KevinT]

There is no logical way to pit God and Jesus against each other in regards to wrath. So that angle is out.

I agree, and my point was to counter the legal view of salvation, which involves Jesus standing between us and an angry God.

One party always seems to be missing in the analysis of these matters. Guess who?

Mark 4:15 shows us that the tempter is within and has access to both heart and mind of all, other than Jesus of course.

Yes, I believe in the devil who works for our downfall. But I am not sure how this plays into my original post about a "wrathful" god, and my contention that perhaps "wrath" is really another word for natural consequences.

BUT it won't be a bad thing, for people. Especially not believers

Rev is about the final destruction of the devil and his messengers, not people.

In Rev 5:13 we see how it all kicks off, and it is entirely pleasant and even joyful to contemplate

No blood and guts of mankind required

It is a pleasant thought to consider how God will make everything right again. But I am not following you when you say "not people" ... "No blood and guts of mankind required."

Jesus himself describes separating the sheep and the goats. Matthew 25: 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." So certainly one group of people is rejected.

And there will be many that THINK they are right with the Lord, only to be sadly mistaken

Matthew 7 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Best wishes,

Kevin

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I agree, and my point was to counter the legal view of salvation, which involves Jesus standing between us and an angry God.


Yes, I believe in the devil who works for our downfall. But I am not sure how this plays into my original post about a "wrathful" god, and my contention that perhaps "wrath" is really another word for natural consequences.



It is a pleasant thought to consider how God will make everything right again. But I am not following you when you say "not people" ... "No blood and guts of mankind required."

Jesus himself describes separating the sheep and the goats. Matthew 25: 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." So certainly one group of people is rejected.

And there will be many that THINK they are right with the Lord, only to be sadly mistaken

Matthew 7 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Best wishes,

Kevin

There is no question God will "eventually" extract permanent vengeance on our mutual adversary, the devil.

My general point was we all engage our adversay, continually, externally and internally, in this present life. So where that wrath and vengeance will fall should be rather obvious, unless we're in denial.

The devil to be destroyed is between our own 2 ears

So, just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to/rebuked Satan, He can and will speak the same to any of us

I'd also suggest that anyone who thinks they always and only do sheep works and never ever do goat works aren't being honest with themselves at all

For example, when Jesus says "Depart from me you workers of iniquity" are we really telling ourselves we never ever ever work iniquity? Mark 7:21-23 says that mere evil thoughts defile all of us.

It's not optional.

As to legalism, it's a veritable joke. The evil present within exactly no one is ever legally obedient. The very foundation of the Grace and Mercy of Christ resides upon the fact of our defilement and need for our Savior

He has already placed the understanding of division in the hands of His own. But eradication, no.

Were we really wanting it, we'd pray for permanent eradication. That's my prayer anyway. Even if it's to my detriment in my current state

 

[The Liturgist]

The Orthodox believe that because God is unchanging, and is purely love, the wrath of God is the experience of the consuming fire of His love by people who are not aligned with God, but hate Him or His Gospel. As I am feeling poorly, further questions concerning this are best addressed to my most pious friend @prodromos

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Orthodox believe that because God is unchanging, and is purely love, the wrath of God is the experience of the consuming fire of His love by people who are not aligned with God, but hate Him or His Gospel. As I am feeling poorly, further questions concerning this are best addressed to my most pious friend @prodromos

I'm familiar with the theory

Basically, that God is not able to change people

I doubt that is an accurate sight myself

or conversely, that people are infinitely equipped to resist Eternal God

In either case it would appear that kind of God is generally powerless other than to torment the majority without a choice or the power to do otherwise on His Own part

 

[Fervent]

I just did a quick search for the word "wrath," specifically God's wrath, and I found 175 matches in the Bible. I'll include a few sample ones below. Comments below.

• Numbers 16:46 -- Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. **wrath** has come out from the Lord; the plague has started.”
• 1 Samuel 28:18 -- Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce **wrath** against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today.
• 2 Samuel 6:8 -- Then David was angry because the Lord’s **wrath** had broken out against Uzzah, and to this day that place is called Perez Uzzah.
• Psalm 2:12 -- Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his **wrath** can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
• Psalm 6:1 -- Lord, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your **wrath**.
• Psalm 7:11 -- God is a righteous judge, a God who displays his **wrath** every day.
• Psalm 21:9 -- When you appear for battle, you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace. The Lord will swallow them up in his **wrath**, and his fire will consume them.
• Psalm 38:3 -- Because of your **wrath** there is no health in my body; there is no soundness in my bones because of my sin.
• Psalm 59:13 -- consume them in your **wrath**, consume them till they are no more. Then it will be known to the ends of the earth that God rules over Jacob.
• Psalm 69:24 -- Pour out your **wrath** on them; let your fierce anger overtake them.
• Proverbs 22:14 -- The mouth of an adulterous woman is a deep pit; a man who is under the Lord’s **wrath** falls into it.
• Isaiah 63:6 -- I trampled the nations in my anger; in my **wrath** I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”
• Jeremiah 21:12 -- This is what the Lord says to you, house of David: “‘Administer justice every morning; rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed, or my **wrath** will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done— burn with no one to quench it.
• Lamentations 3:1 -- I am the man who has seen affliction by the rod of the Lord’s **wrath**.
• Ezekiel 7:8 -- I am about to pour out my **wrath** on you and spend my anger against you. I will judge you according to your conduct and repay you for all your detestable practices.
• Daniel 8:19 -- He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of **wrath**, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.
• John 3:36 -- Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s **wrath** remains on them.
• Romans 2:5 -- But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up **wrath** against yourself for the day of God’s **wrath**, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
• Romans 13:4 -- For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of **wrath** to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
• Romans 4:15 -- because the law brings **wrath**. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
• Ephesians 5:6 -- Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s **wrath** comes on those who are disobedient.
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10 -- and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming **wrath**.
• Revelation 6:16 -- They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the **wrath** of the Lamb!
• Revelation 14:10 -- they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his **wrath**. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

My thoughts:

• Wrath, in my mind, is strongly linked with "anger." And anger seems linked to irrational behavior, as in "I'm so angry right now, I can't see straight." Dictionary definitions include "an intense emotional state induced by displeasure," "strong vengeful anger or indignation," "strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire." This doesn't seem to match the typical portrayal of Jesus as "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild."
  
  
• Jesus is described as rescuing us from coming wrath. 1 Thess 1:10: "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming **wrath**." But who is the source of this wrath? Most texts attribute the wrath to "God', but Rev 6:16 says “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" So we have Jesus (the lamb) rescuing us from the wrath of the lamb. Jesus rescues us from the wrath of Jesus. The only sense I can make of this is that there are phases. First Jesus is encouraging and teaching, but at some point he becomes the judge and punisher.
  
  
• It seems I have been presented with the image of an angry Father God who wants to punish mankind, but Jesus stands as a mediator who satisfies the anger of God. But this is not consistent with [John3:16]: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. And [John 16]: I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. And [John 14]: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
  
  
• So if we don't have God the Father and God the Son at odds with each other, setting a legal dispute, then what really is the wrath really about?
  
  
• I have been entertaining an idea that the "Wrath of God", can be considered to be a result of natural consequences. God sets up a natural, physical law of gravity, and when we trip and fall, we suffer the wrath of God when we cry from the pain of a skinned knee. When we fall into the clutches of the adulterer, we suffer the consequences as catch herpes and deal with that pain, and when we fail to pay attention to all God's other teaching, then we will fall into the traps and pits that Satan has set out for us. Yes the pain and suffering of that skinned knee come from God, but so also does He enable us to learn how to run and not stumble. Another example might be huge waves on the beach -- all a result of God's physical laws. They have the power crush and kill a person, but a skilled surfer uses this same power to have fun, with amazing results.
  
  
• One problem with my wrath<-->natural consequences theory is that natural laws don't seem to have any arbitrariness to them. They are always the same, and are not negotiable. Gravity is the same yesterday and today. But the "wrath" mentioned above often is the result of a decision from God. As when Uzzah touched the ark. 2 Samuel 6:8 -- "Then David was angry because the Lord’s **wrath** had broken out against Uzzah..." So I think my theory needs to be further fleshed out.

What are your thoughts?

A couple of quick observations, we can't project our emotions onto God. So when we speak of God's wrath, we're not speaking about an unrestrained explosive fury. We're talking about a measured opposition to evil. Which expresses itself in a number of different ways, natural causes being one of them. But also things like raising foreign armies, sending a drought, etc. While many of these things appear to us to be natural expressions of an established natural law, that natural law only is in effect because God wills it to be. So there shouldn't be any arbitrariness to it, because God is not arbitrary. It's all part of a pan to achieve the ends that God desires for creation....

But we're getting into questions above my paygrade, so I'll leave it there and trust that God knows what He's doing well enough to get it all perfectly right without any input from me and when the plan is revealed to us we will cry out with an amen and a hallelujah.

 

[The Liturgist]

Basically, that God is not able to change people

No, that is not what we believe, at all. We believe God positively changes people all the time, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, and through Theosis and so on.

Rather we believe God Himself does not change, but is rather immutable, and so He does not go from being happy to being wrathful (which makes no sense, since God is eternal). The wrath of God is the experience of God’s love by those who have resisted the grace of the Holy Spirit and thus experience the consuming fire of His love as a torment.

 

[The Liturgist]

or conversely, that people are infinitely equipped to resist Eternal God

God could deny us free will if He wanted to, but then our love for Him would not be genuine. It would not be love, but a simulacrum of love. Thus, for us to love God, He must give us the choice, since love is, by definition, voluntary.

Christ our True God demonstrated His divinity by resisting the temptations of Satan and choosing to save us despite having to endure excruciating pain and torture.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

-if He wanted to, but -

That's somewhat of the rub isn't it? All the people that are being tortured could change, just as we were changed, IF God wanted to. But to certain positions in this matter such as the E.O.'s that can't happen

I'd expect if God wanted to there will always be nothing less than a perfect outcome

Eternal torture is not an issue for me. I believe the devil and his messengers will have that fate.

But since sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor 5:19, I do expect a different outcome, of change for the positive

Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to Satan, Jesus can say the same to any of us. So things are not always as they appear on the surface

 

[The Liturgist]

That's somewhat of the rub isn't it? All the people that are being tortured could change, just as we were changed, IF God wanted to. But to certain positions in this matter such as the E.O.'s that can't happen

I don’t think you understand what the EO doctrine means. We believe that God Himself is, to quote Scripture, the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. We also believe He has the power to change people, and can do so without changing Himself, since we are not pantheists; if God changes part of His creation, such as us, He is not changing Himself.

Also, the prevailing view in Eastern Orthodoxy is that God does not torture us. Rather, by opposing God, we torture ourselves. The Outer Darkness is a mercy provided by God so that those who hate Him will not be eternally tormented by living in the light of His presence in the World to Come. The torment there is the knowledge among people therein on what they have missed out on, and continue to miss out on. We very much like what CS Lewis wrote, that the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

We also believe He has the power to change people, and can do so

He might, might not. Obviously the E.O. doesn't believe every person gets changed for the better. Just some. Who or how many is probably the subject of debates

 

[Erik Nelson]

The Fall represents the Agricultural revolution, from simple hunting and gathering in Eden, to the toil and trudgery of farming in sedentary cities in Nod. The conflicts between Cain and Abel as well as between Jacob and Esau symbolize the conflicts between the emerging farming communities spreading across the lands at the expense of the older hunter gatherers who steadily faded away:

Agricultural revolution => Wrath => Fall

Then, Tubal-Cain (metallurgy), cities such as Enoch in Nod (urbanization), Jabal and Jubal (music and civilization), and the Tower of Babel (civil engineering) symbolize the early Industrial revolution, which is punished with the Flood and the scattering of languages:

Industrial revolution => Wrath => Flood, fall of Babel

"Lest they become like Us"

From Grok:

• "Pattern of Progress and Punishment:
  • Eden: farming = toil. Flood: cities/metallurgy = destruction. Babel: engineering = scattering. Each technological step—agriculture, industry, urbanism—meets divine pushback, suggesting a consistent “wrath” against human overreach...
• Neolithic-to-Industrial:
  • Farming enslaved humans to land; metallurgy and cities enslaved them to systems—war, kings, labor. The Bible might see both as falls from grace...

Eden’s toil screams Neolithic drudgery; the Flood and Babel whisper unease at metallurgy and urbanism—drowning Cain’s smiths, scattering Babel’s builders. Tubal-Cain’s craft isn’t cursed outright, but his line’s end and Babel’s fall suggest a pattern: each leap (farming, forging, city-building) brings divine correction—labor, deluge, confusion. It’s not as sharp as Eden’s “sweat,” but the vibe’s there: progress angers God, from plow to forge.

Archaeologically, the Bronze/Iron Ages’ woes (war, inequality) echo farming’s (disease, toil)—Genesis might encode both as “falls” from simpler days."



(ergo, God demands humans remain simplistic)

(cp. modern environmentalists are claiming that America will suffer a modern Flood of Global Warming heat wave, "mend your ways or else by 2100..." they claim to Prophesy nightly on CNN and MSM with all those charts you constantly see thereon. They literally advocate "debuilding" and returning to stone age "harmony and balance")

(Cp. knocking down the Twin Towers symbolized God's Wrath from heaven against modern Towers of Babel and human civilization on earth, revenge against the Moon program as illegal hubris)

(Heaven is God's domain, and They will brook no peer or rival, and so will thwart all human progress until earth is destroyed by fire from heaven (Rev 20:9) on the Day of Fire from heaven to destroy humanity)