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Thoughts on Abiogenesis

SelfSim

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I might be getting confused about what predictability we’re talking about, are we talking about the scientists in the room predicting my future body movements? I don’t understand why the mind would be said to be predicting itself, wouldn’t we instead just call it the brain process that corresponds to the mind willing an action?
Fair enough .. (apologies for my part of any confusion there) .. its extraordinarily difficult trying to describe an emergent property using terms which already imply causality. ('Predictions' and 'predictability' are examples of such terms). Causality is related to our brain's fundamental, (evidently intrinsic), concept of time and thus causality is also just another of the mind's concepts.
Vap841 said:
Maybe assumption wasn’t a good word to use, I’m basically just saying “Given a future science of exhaustive knowledge” as opposed to me saying something like “Aha I win since science currently can’t point to it yet.”
Oh .. ok ..
Vap841 said:
I was only agreeing that we both believe in a balancing point. But they are different, yours is of materialism mine is dualism.
Nope .. where I was coming from doesn't assume the existence of a so called, 'materialistic' universe (external to us) .. that assumption is just an untestable (philosophical) belief as far as objective science is concerned .. and that's another huge OT conversation .. let's not do it, eh?
The concept of a 'balancing point', (called 'the edge of criticality') there, is an outcome from a testable model based on the mathematics describing the notable features of complexity theory.
Vap841 said:
We’re not abandoning the belief in free will based actions because it’s counter-intuitive, in fact free will is the most intuitive thing that there is, we’re abandoning the belief in free will to accommodate a closed system of materialism.
(Just as an aside comment: I'd say consciousness would be the most intuitive concept we'd all agree on there ..)
I wouldn't say that the concept of free-will is necessarily abandoned there .. more like its objective testability is, at best, very sketchy .. regardless of beliefs in 'materialism', so the concept isn't particularly relevant to the testing which can (and is) being done via the scientific method.

(This conversation has also drifted a long way from the OP Abiogenesis topic too, I'm afraid ..)
 
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Vap841

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(This conversation has also drifted a long way from the OP Abiogenesis topic too, I'm afraid ..)
I think it’s safe to say that the blame is on me since I didn’t touch the subject even once lol
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Have you ever seen the movie Fallen where the demon keeps switching bodies? So I believe we have a will, but to agree with what you say here I definitely think that physical composition pulls & pushes at us in certain ways that can most definitely “Test” our will. That there’s an undertow of emotions underneath the surface of consciousness. If we could hop from body to body like in Fallen it would still be “Us” each time, however we would be subject to the mood swings/stresses/carefreeness of each body we hopped into. It wouldn’t be the same exact result for each body like in that movie.
It's a nice conceit, but that's not how it works - the evidence overwhelmingly tells us that 'you' (awareness, consciousness, sense of self, memories, preferences, opinions, morals, etc.) are all encoded in and enacted by your brain in your body. Every facet of those elements can be altered by modifying the activity of specific parts of the brain. Consciousness itself can be switched off and back on without you even noticing.

It's just about possible that you might have the kind of experience you describe if your brain was transplanted to a different body.

I even think that an optimistic will could to a certain extent heal that body over time (look at the health of happy people vs sad people, all things being equal). You improve your health if you force yourself to adopt better moods.
There's certainly some evidence that cultivating a positive mood is generally beneficial to health - it reduces stress, makes you more likely to exercise and lead a healthier and more social life. But there's no good evidence I know of that it improves recovery or survival from serious disease cancers, heart disease, and so-on, although it might make you feel a bit better.

I recently saw but didn’t comment on a post that I didn’t agree with, the poster pretty much excused someone for going on a killing spree because he undeniably suffered a certain brain injury that is known to incline people towards violent behavior. I can not give that guy a pass, if your will hopped into his body you might just live out your days being miserable and rude to people. Or maybe you commit suicide. I’ve known many mentally ill people and there’s variation on how they allow it to control them.
The vagueness and ill-definition of social conveniences such as personal responsibility, and particularly moral responsibility, makes for tricky problems where edge-cases are concerned. Many people have obsessive and/or compulsive thoughts and behaviours that make their lives a misery but that they are unable to control, and brain injury or disease can lead to some very strange problems such as Tourette syndrome, alien hand syndrome, monothematic delusions, paralysis denial, hemispatial neglect, and so-on.

Society in general (with a few exceptions), and the law in particular, are not well prepared for the kind of edge-cases that can occur. It's usually thought that if an action is deemed voluntary, then the individual is responsible (implying culpability) and if not, they are not responsible - unless they were aware of reasonable steps they could take to avoid it.

One surprising case was the Kenneth Parks case of criminal automatism (he killed while sleepwalking and was aquitted due to reasonable doubt that he acted voluntarily). A more troubling case was Charles Whitman (the Texas tower shooter), who sought medical help for violent urges prior to his killing spree, and left a suicide note describing his confusion over those feelings, and asking for an autopsy to check his brain in case what he was suffering could be prevented in future. The autopsy found a brain tumour in an area associated with emotions and impulse control. We'll never know, but if the tumour was the reason, or part of the reason, for his homicidal urges, were they voluntary? was he culpable?

These considerations can apply for positive actions too - people may take action in the heat of the moment that saves someone's life, and are often praised for their bravery - but many of them say that they acted without thought, instinctively, on the spur of the moment; that if they'd thought about it they probably wouldn't have done it. Does this count as voluntary or involuntary?

Every individual is physically responsible for what they do, but the question of whether they are culpable or praiseworthy, whether they act voluntarily or involuntarily is not so clear, partly because the concept of 'voluntary' itself depends on ill-defined abstractions like 'will', which become nebulous under close scientific examination.

Ahh ok, interesting. I have a decent bit of material on neuroscience and biochemistry that I have been dragging my feet on and hopefully I will get to it soon. I definitely wanna get a better feel for the technical details and terminology.
I recommend Antonio Damasio's book 'Self Comes to Mind' for an overview of how consciousness and the self arise in the brain, and Daniel Kahneman's 'Thinking, Fast and Slow' for an entertaining look at how we think and the biases, shortcuts, and heuristics we're generally unaware of.
 
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Vap841

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Traditionally Western Civilisation until the mid 17th to 18th centuries (which can equally be called Christendom) had a concept of graded souls. There was the Nutritive soul in plants, then the Animal soul, going up to the Rational soul in humans. Thereafter with the breakdown of old-style Scholastic Aristotleanism and the increasing adoption of the mechanical metaphor (of the soul in some sense 'driving' the body) perhaps from Descartes' influence, the idea of animals and plants being 'soulless' arose (or some idea of Transcendentalism or panpsychism based on classical philosophy). The concept of Life itself was also much looser before, as mediaevals were happy to ascribe life to the stars for instance, and debates on whether rivers were not in a sense 'alive' not unheard of. It is more the rigid post-Baconian and Linnaean nature that is at play today, creating our classifications that always has exceptions somewhere.

The old idea was that there were body, spirit and soul - a dead thing having body, but its soul had fled. It has biblical antecedents in the OT concept of living and dead nephesh. Similarly men had a rational soul, but it was the spirit (which was God-breathed) in combination with the rational soul that was important. The body too was required, hence we got new bodies at the Parousia and that the dead were in-Christ, as the form of soul had to be embodied somehow to continue to be meaningful categories. Old concepts of Heaven and Hell were still in some sense corporeal often, as the impulse to clearly delineate was not yet as strong as today. In fact, it was deemed Manichean or Gnostic heresy often, to think of humans as 'souls' separate from the body, as is often conceived today.
What is the difference between soul and spirit?

I think that the search for abiogenesis could be in vain because there could be a gap of several evolutionary levels between what everyone calls alive, and alive things that have conscious awareness. So a scientific definition of life could be different from what the average Joe is thinking about, they may have that “It’s Alive” Frankenstein change in mind from non-organic material. I think that was what you were getting at with how you were talking about how muddled the definition of alive has been throughout history.
 
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Vap841

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I recommend Antonio Damasio's book 'Self Comes to Mind' for an overview of how consciousness and the self arise in the brain, and Daniel Kahneman's 'Thinking, Fast and Slow' for an entertaining look at how we think and the biases, shortcuts, and heuristics we're generally unaware of.
I’ve read enough of your stuff to know that you are very technical, so recommendations from you will be solid, thanks.
 
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Ophiolite

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I think that the search for abiogenesis could be in vain because there could be a gap of several evolutionary levels between what everyone calls alive, and alive things that have conscious awareness. So a scientific definition of life could be different from what the average Joe is thinking about, they may have that “It’s Alive” Frankenstein change in mind from non-organic material. I think that was what you were getting at with how you were talking about how muddled the definition of alive has been throughout history.
I note en passant that conscious awareness is a recent "invention" of evolution. The vast majority of life lacks consciousness and has done for the majority of the 3.5 +/- billion years it has been around. It is arguably to early to say whether or not it is an abberation, an end result, or a step in as yet unrecognised and undetermined destination.
 
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Vap841

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I note en passant that conscious awareness is a recent "invention" of evolution. The vast majority of life lacks consciousness and has done for the majority of the 3.5 +/- billion years it has been around. It is arguably to early to say whether or not it is an abberation, an end result, or a step in as yet unrecognised and undetermined destination.
Since human consciousness is the only consciousness that we can ever truly know (if we ignore the problem of other minds), and since very low life forms act like robots (Behaviorism won’t help you), I’m wondering if the best inference that we have to go on for low life forms like insects is to see something appearing to be in pain. But you lose even that behavioral clue if you drop down even lower down towards bacteria. That’s why I said the search could be in vain. What would be a better clue than something squirming in pain?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Since human consciousness is the only consciousness that we can ever truly know (if we ignore the problem of other minds), and since very low life forms act like robots (Behaviorism won’t help you), I’m wondering if the best inference that we have to go on for low life forms like insects is to see something appearing to be in pain. But you lose even that behavioral clue if you drop down even lower down towards bacteria. That’s why I said the search could be in vain. What would be a better clue than something squirming in pain?
Firstly, you need to define exactly what you mean by pain and maybe what a creature needs to be capable of experiencing it, then you need to decide which behaviours might indicate pain and whether they necessarily indicate pain; for example, whether contortions of the body or limbs always mean pain, or whether they might be purely reflexive, or perhaps just random muscle contractions.

It's a tricky business...
 
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Vap841

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Firstly, you need to define exactly what you mean by pain and maybe what a creature needs to be capable of experiencing it, then you need to decide which behaviours might indicate pain and whether they necessarily indicate pain; for example, whether contortions of the body or limbs always mean pain, or whether they might be purely reflexive, or perhaps just random muscle contractions.

It's a tricky business...
Lol I was thinking the same thing, that it could be purely reflexive at a certain lower level, making the inference less certain the lower we go (although still the best guess we have to go on)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Lol I was thinking the same thing, that it could be purely reflexive at a certain lower level, making the inference less certain the lower we go (although still the best guess we have to go on)
Yes; I think it's reasonable to say that it requires a certain level of neural complexity to experience the sensation of pain in something like the way we do (if that's what we mean by 'pain'), but it's also likely that there's a continuum of levels of sensory awareness, so drawing a line at some point is going to be arbitrary.
 
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SelfSim

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Firstly, you need to define exactly what you mean by pain and maybe what a creature needs to be capable of experiencing it, then you need to decide which behaviours might indicate pain and whether they necessarily indicate pain; for example, whether contortions of the body or limbs always mean pain, or whether they might be purely reflexive, or perhaps just random muscle contractions...
.. and then notice who it is who's needing to do all that definition stuff there ..
 
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Bradskii

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I recommend Antonio Damasio's book 'Self Comes to Mind' for an overview of how consciousness and the self arise in the brain, and Daniel Kahneman's 'Thinking, Fast and Slow' for an entertaining look at how we think and the biases, shortcuts, and heuristics we're generally unaware of.

+1 on the Kahneman book. And I guess I better add Damasio's to my reading list. Although one-click purchases on Amazon means I'm buying books quicker than I can read them...

A brief note on consciousness. I did read a proposal some time back that it was a natural event caused by us leaving the oceans and starting to inhabit the land. Because it's easier to see a greater part of your environment on land than it is in water, there was an evolutionary benefit in interpreting the larger amount of information available and developing some conditional modes of reacting to it. IF this THEN that etc. So a sense of what was 'out there' developed as opposed to simply reacting to external stimuli. And if there's an 'out there' then a sense of 'in here' seems a natural progression. So an organism developed a sense of itself within the environment.
 
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Bradskii

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What is the difference between soul and spirit?

I think that the search for abiogenesis could be in vain because there could be a gap of several evolutionary levels between what everyone calls alive, and alive things that have conscious awareness. So a scientific definition of life could be different from what the average Joe is thinking about, they may have that “It’s Alive” Frankenstein change in mind from non-organic material. I think that was what you were getting at with how you were talking about how muddled the definition of alive has been throughout history.

Exactly right. There cannot have been a bright line dividing the world into a time when there wasn't life to a time that there was. It's not like at 3:32pm on Tuedsay afternoon 4 billion years ago 'life' switched on somewhere.

And your Frankenstein comment brings to mind 'Putting on the Ritz'. It cracks me up every time...

 
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Occams Barber

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+1 on the Kahneman book. And I guess I better add Damasio's to my reading list. Although one-click purchases on Amazon means I'm buying books quicker than I can read them...

A brief note on consciousness. I did read a proposal some time back that it was a natural event caused by us leaving the oceans and starting to inhabit the land. Because it's easier to see a greater part of your environment on land than it is in water, there was an evolutionary benefit in interpreting the larger amount of information available and developing some conditional modes of reacting to it. IF this THEN that etc. So a sense of what was 'out there' developed as opposed to simply reacting to external stimuli. And if there's an 'out there' then a sense of 'in here' seems a natural progression. So an organism developed a sense of itself within the environment.

I recall reading something similar a while back but I can't remember the source. It did send me off on a Google jag ending up at this page full of wonderment:

comparative evolution on land and water - Google Search

OB
 
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Bradskii

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I recall reading something similar a while back but I can't remember the source. It did send me off on a Google jag ending up at this page full of wonderment:

comparative evolution on land and water - Google Search

OB

This article in the Atlantic touches on it as regards the need to process more information: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/how-consciousness-evolved/485558/

"The Attention Schema Theory (AST), developed over the past five years, may be able to answer those questions. The theory suggests that consciousness arises as a solution to one of the most fundamental problems facing any nervous system: Too much information constantly flows in to be fully processed. The brain evolved increasingly sophisticated mechanisms for deeply processing a few select signals at the expense of others, and in the AST, consciousness is the ultimate result of that evolutionary sequence."

It seems reasonable that there'd be more information to process on land rather than in the ocean. One could consider that an amphibian would be receiving a lot more information than it's ancestor who lived entirely in the water and would need to process that extra info to survive.
 
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Occams Barber

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This article in the Atlantic touches on it as regards the need to process more information: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/how-consciousness-evolved/485558/

"The Attention Schema Theory (AST), developed over the past five years, may be able to answer those questions. The theory suggests that consciousness arises as a solution to one of the most fundamental problems facing any nervous system: Too much information constantly flows in to be fully processed. The brain evolved increasingly sophisticated mechanisms for deeply processing a few select signals at the expense of others, and in the AST, consciousness is the ultimate result of that evolutionary sequence."

It seems reasonable that there'd be more information to process on land rather than in the ocean. One could consider that an amphibian would be receiving a lot more information than it's ancestor who lived entirely in the water and would need to process that extra info to survive.


I recall something about detecting food and predators being a close proximity proposition underwater. As a result underwater life tends to be reactive with little opportunity for planning.

A land based animal is more likely to detect prey/predators at a distance allowing for the possibility of a more strategic approach.

OB
 
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SelfSim

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Bradskii said:
So a sense of what was 'out there' developed as opposed to simply reacting to external stimuli. And if there's an 'out there' then a sense of 'in here' seems a natural progression. So an organism developed a sense of itself within the environment.
Our sense of ‘out there/in here’ is a model conceived by our minds as a result of information deposited from another commonly referenced model used for describing how it all ‘got into’ our minds in the first place .. ie : the model of our sensory organs. ‘Sensory organs’ is how we also explain all our reactions to sensory stimuli, so I don’t really see any distinction there?

(They’re all just models .. perhaps just of different types .. but still all mind models).

There’s no real need for the ‘if there’s an out there’ .. The fact is that everything our minds perceive, once expressed, become models that we (mostly) act upon in some way, and that’s really the only explanation we need there.
 
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Bradskii

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Our sense of ‘out there/in here’ is a model conceived by our minds as a result of information deposited from another commonly referenced model used for describing how it all ‘got into’ our minds in the first place .. ie : the model of our sensory organs. ‘Sensory organs’ is how we also explain all our reactions to sensory stimuli, so I don’t really see any distinction there?

I don't see anything with which to disagree. I was just pointing out the differences in information input between water based and land based creatures. Or a purely water based one and an amphibian. Which has to deal with sensory input under water and on land.

A point that OB pointed out that is pertinent to the proposal I read some time back is that water based animals are often reactive. Whereas land based can be proactive. And yes, there are counter examples. But proactivity - forward thinking if you like, is generally associated with consciousness. Whereas reactivity can be simply instinctive behaviours.
 
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Vap841

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Exactly right. There cannot have been a bright line dividing the world into a time when there wasn't life to a time that there was. It's not like at 3:32pm on Tuedsay afternoon 4 billion years ago 'life' switched on somewhere.
And we still have bacteria even though we also have humans, that’s my fear, to reincarnate into a lower life form. There’s so much exciting possibly with billions of other goldilocks planets out there as well. I believe that who I truly am is an emergent mental agent and that my mental properties can exert a causal influence over my body (Emergentism). However my physical body will die, so I still would need to be reassembled again into a highly complex body with a large brain to enjoy this type of freedom and awareness again. PLEASE don’t let me be an extra terrestrial dung beetle next lol.
And your Frankenstein comment brings to mind 'Putting on the Ritz'. It cracks me up every time...
I barely remember that movie. Who brings lettuce with them to throw at one of those classy events lol?
 
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Bradskii

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And we still have bacteria even though we also have humans, that’s my fear, to reincarnate into a lower life form. There’s so much exciting possibly with billions of other goldilocks planets out there as well. I believe that who I truly am is an emergent mental agent and that my mental properties can exert a causal influence over my body (Emergentism). However my physical body will die, so I still would need to be reassembled again into a highly complex body with a large brain to enjoy this type of freedom and awareness again. PLEASE don’t let me be an extra terrestrial dung beetle next lol.

I barely remember that movie. Who brings lettuce with them to throw at one of those classy events lol?

We're definitely more than the sum of our parts. I like to think of us as bits of the universe that have become aware of itself.

I don't know why, but I've been having very vivid dreams recently. I go to bed almost thinking 'Gee, where am I going to end up tonight'. How cool would it be to think when our three score and ten are up we get to think 'Where am I going to end up next?' Although our Christian chums will probably have one of only two options available for me.

But maybe it's already happened and I don't remember the last iteration. Which would be something of a waste...
 
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