Thoughts from the Book of Job

[SavedByGrace3]

An Illustration

Let’s say you own 100 acres of land up in the mountains. As the owner, you can do whatever you want with or to it. I am an EPA officer. You and I walk to the top of your tallest mountain. I point over the land and say, "Look, you can do whatever you want with/to your land. Only do not start a fire."

Did I give you some new, special permission to do with your own land as you choose? Did you ask me for permission to allow you to do something? Anything? Did you even need my permission to do what you want with your land? To the contrary. All I did was put a reasonable limit on what you can do. The purpose of our conversation was not to tell you what you could do. It was to tell you what you could not do. This is the gist of the dialogue between God and Satan about Job.

Satan had standing permission to get Job. A hedge was the only thing preventing Satan from doing whatever he wanted to Job. Satan did not ask for permission to get Job because he did not need to ask permission. When God and Satan spoke, God did not give Satan permission to do anything Satan could not already do.

​

1 Peter 5:8 KJV​

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:​

​

​

Satan is a lion doing what lions do. Lions have standing permission to get anyone they want within their natural limitations. Satan can get "whom he may devour." If a lion wants a gazelle, he does not need to petition God for permission. If a hedge surrounds the gazelle, the lion is limited. But if the hedge is down, the limitation is gone. No permission is needed for the lion to get the gazelle.

​

God said, "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.."​

The question is, Why did God have to point out to Satan something that Satan already knew? Satan knew he could “get” Job anytime he wanted to. But he also knew there was a hedge. That was the only limitation that was preventing Satan from devouring Job. It was not the lack of permission. It was a hedge. All God did was point out something that Satan did not know. Satan did not know that the hedge was down and that everything Job had, even his body and life, were vulnerable to Satan.

Looking at it this way. The only reason people read this passage and see God giving Satan permission to get Job is their preconceived notion of such. They think Satan needs permission, and so that is what they see and hear.

The reality is:

Satan already had standing permission to get whomever he wanted, including Job.​

Satan did not need permission.​

Satan did not ask for permission.​

God did not give permission.​

Far from asking God's permission, Satan asked God to harm Job.​

Satan accused God of running a “devotion for blessings scheme.”​

Satan accused God of hedging up around Job, and that was the only reason Job worshiped Him.​

God countered by pointing out that the hedge was down, and everything Job had was within Satan’s hands. (Therefore, Satan’s accusations were wrong.)​

“Hedge? What hedge? There is no hedge! That disappeared since you last attacked him. Your accusation is, therefore, false. There is no hedge now, and Job worships me anyway! Look (Behold) for yourself. Can't you see that the hedge is down, and all he has is in your hands? You can ‘get’ to him now, as is your way, but in this instance, I will limit you (opposite of giving permission) from what you usually could do (devour him). I remove from you your standing permission to harm his body or kill him. Other than that, because the hedge is down, everything is in your hands, just as always.“​

 

[bling]

I think this depends on your belief in predestination and foreknowledge. I personally do not feel that Eve was predestined to sin.

Lots of things are predestined by God since that is what He will do and sometimes when He will do it.

If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

God expressing himself in anthropomorphically to humans is to show why God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. Time in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a known universe.

If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done” it (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

My theory would have this:

1. God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.

2. God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.

3. God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.

4. God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.

5. God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult made throughout man’s history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person.

6. God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

God exists throughout human time at the same time, so there really is no past or future for God, so when we talk about the future, it is only future for us and not God.

It is not that God knows what future you will chose in the future (suggesting the future, is also God’s future), but God knows the free will choices you did make in the future (it is history for God).



The reason God knows a free will choice you will make tomorrow is because you already made that choice for the God which exists at the end of time, so with God being outside of time the God at the end of time is communicating (within Himself) to the God of today the choices you made tomorrow.

Yes, tomorrow’s choice has not been made as far as you are concerned, but has been made as far as God is concerned.

Time is totally “relative” for God and for the last 100 years now, time has been shown to be relative and nothing has even gone against the Theory of Relativity.

If we consider "sin" to mean doing something that is not for the best, then maybe she was sinning before she at the fruit. But if she had not believed the serpent and eaten the forbidden fruit, and instead had walked away, do you think the "sin" would have led to Christ having to die on the cross? I have always thought that the moment of proper sin was the actual eating of the fruit.

God determines “sin”, so for Adam and Eve in the Garden there was only one way to sin, “eat the fruit”.

Without having Godly type Love which humans must obtain while here on earth and cannot be made instinctive to humans, Adam and Eve will eventually eat the fruit (if you Love me, you will obey me).

Satan just helps us do the sins we are wanting to do with, logic, lies, and feeding our sinful desires, but we are to blame for our sins and not satan.

Satan used to be a highly exulted angel in heaven before he rebelled and was expelled from the mountain of God (Isaiah, Ezekial). There was a conflict between God and Satan (Revelation) long before our parents fell and joined the rebellion, and the events of Job were just one more skirmish between them. Satan was just using Job to advance his accusations, making a bigger point that people like Job are only loyal to God when times are good. And that if their comfort is removed, they will turn on God. So Job became a pawn in the battle. He survived, but his children did not. They were lost as a result of the conflict, the "crossfire."

Satan’s rebellion is over so, we are not in that confect, but God keeps satan around on earth to help humans to realize how weak they are against spiritual beings and in need of God’s help. Battles make us stronger, by allowing God to fight them through us.

Satan is out to get humans, like the third of the angels who followed satan, we can join satan. Like Cain, satan hates God but cannot fight God, so he goes after the Abels (God Lovers) of the world to destroy them.

Did you read this: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing…..; I would present it to him as to a ruler​

God is not like some “ruler”, but the creator of everything, perfect in knowledge and not someone you can argue with.​

Does that not sound like Job is asking God to come down to him and explain His actions?​

Job is suggesting God made a mistake with him, just to suggest this of God is to bring God down.​

Job knew he had sinned since he said: Therefore I despise myself​

and repent in dust and ashes​

If Job had not sinned there would not be a need for Job to repent.​

​

 

[KevinT]

Consider:

Job 1:8
And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'

I had not seen this translation before, that includes "set thy heart". Bible Gateway lists, here, all the different translations -- and several use this phrase. But more do not. Is "set they heart" a more literal translation?

We can see that Satan had already tried to get Job and did so without asking for any permission. Once we realize this "permission" issue is bogus, the rest of the conversation will fall into place.

Yeah, I think the "permission" consideration comes from those focused on the "Sovereignty" of God. In that mode of thinking, if Satan does a thing, then it must be by permission of God. But I don't think that Lucifer got "permission" before he turned evil.

KT

 

[KevinT]

When God and Satan spoke, God did not give Satan permission to do anything Satan could not already do.

I agree

Satan accused God of hedging up around Job, and that was the only reason Job worshiped Him.​

God countered by pointing out that the hedge was down, and everything Job had was within Satan’s hands. (Therefore, Satan’s accusations were wrong.)​

“Hedge? What hedge? There is no hedge! That disappeared since you last attacked him. Your accusation is, therefore, false. There is no hedge now, and Job worships me anyway! Look (Behold) for yourself. Can't you see that the hedge is down, and all he has is in your hands? You can ‘get’ to him now, as is your way, but in this instance, I will limit you (opposite of giving permission) from what you usually could do (devour him). I remove from you your standing permission to harm his body or kill him. Other than that, because the hedge is down, everything is in your hands, just as always.“​

I have not really thought about this issue in the concept you present of permissions vs hedges.

Interesting discussion. Thanks!

KT

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I had not seen this translation before, that includes "set thy heart". Bible Gateway lists, here, all the different translations -- and several use this phrase. But more do not. Is "set they heart" a more literal translation?

Yes:
Job 1:8 LITV (Greens)
8 And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job because there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil?

I think LSV is even clearer that it was more than just taking note of Job:

Job 1:8 LSV (Literal Standard Version)
8 And YHWH says to Satan, “Have you set your heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?”


Commentator John Gill gives a good explanation of the tone and context of the verse and passage:

Job 1:8
And the Lord said unto Satan, hast thou considered my servant Job,.... Or, "hast thou put thine heart on my servant" (p); not in a way of love and affection to him, to do him any good or service, there being an original and implacable enmity in this old serpent to the seed of the woman; but rather his heart was set upon him in a way of desire to have him in his hands, to do him all the mischief he could, as the desire of his heart was toward Peter, Luk_22:31 but the sense of the question is, since thou sayest thou hast been walking up and down in the earth, hast thou not taken notice of Job, and cast an eye upon him, and wished in thine heart to have him in thine hands to do him hurt? I know that thou hast; hast thou not contrived in thine heart how to attack him, tempt him, and draw him from my service, and into sins and snares, in order to reproach and accuse him? thou hast, but all in vain; and so it is a sarcasm upon Satan, as well as an expression of indignation at him for such an attempt upon him, and as anticipating his accusation of Job; for it is as if he should further say, I know he is in thine eye, and upon thine heart, now thou art come with a full intent to accuse and charge him; so Jarchi, "lest thou set thine heart", &c. so as "to have a good will to accuse him"

Barnes quotes Schultens:
Hast thou considered my servant Job? - Margin, "Set thine heart on." The margin is a literal translation of the Hebrew. Schultens remarks on this, that it means more than merely to observe or to look at - since it is abundantly manifest from the following verses that Satan "had" attentively considered Job, and had been desirous of injuring him. It means, according to him, to set himself against Job, to fix the heart on him with an intention to injure him, and yahweh means to ask whether Satan had done this

Clarks Commentary:
Verse Job 1:8 (NAS)
8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
"Hast thou considered my servant Job — Literally, Hast thou placed thy heart on my servant Job? Hast thou viewed his conduct with attention, whilst thou wert roaming about, seeking whom thou mightest devour? viz., the careless, prayerless, and profligate in general."

Smith's Commentary has an interesting take on the word "considered:"
Have you considered my servant Job ( Job 1:8 (NAS)

8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."

God's doing a little bragging now. He's got one down there who really loves Him. He's a perfect man. He hates evil. Praying for his children.

The word "considered" is the word that I'm interested in, though, because it is actually a military term. It is the term that is used of a general who is studying a city before he attacks it in order that he might develop his strategy whereby he can destroy the city. So he's watching when they open the gates, the method of which they open the gates. How do the people come out? What gates are the most easily attacked? And he's developing his whole strategy in order that he might attack and destroy the city. That's the Hebrew word, the background of the word. It's a military term. "Have you been studying Job? Seeking to develop the strategy whereby you might destroy him? Have you considered my servant Job?"

But I think it is evidence that Satan had already attempted to do Job harm and was prevented from doing so by the hedge. It also seems that the purpose of Satan on that day was to accuse God of protecting Job, and that was the only reason Job worshiped Him.

Thanks for the discussion!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Yeah, I think the "permission" consideration comes from those focused on the "Sovereignty" of God. In that mode of thinking, if Satan does a thing, then it must be by permission of God. But I don't think that Lucifer got "permission" before he turned evil.

Exactly. Very perceptive. This is the issue with many who come into the Book of Job. Many hold to the concept that "God is in control of everything" and that nothing happens without his authentication, authorization, and, to some extent, even orchestration. I disagree. There is the "course of nature" at play and most of what happens falls within this rule. As to sovereignty and control... yes, absolutely. He can do anything. But it seems that more often than not, He chooses not to and opts to simply let nature take its course.
But when people arrive at Job, they assume that since "God controls everything," then Satan had to have permission to do what he did. I think all Satan needed was for the hedge to come down. The permission was standing since the fall.

But if you think about:

1 Peter 5:8 LSV
8 Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the Devil walks around as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may swallow up,

What is the purpose of being sober and vigilant if the Devil cannot get to us without God's permission?
In reverse, if God gave the Devil permission then there is a purpose. And if God gave the Devil permission, what good is being sober and vigilant?
And there is the hedge concept. If there are hedges, then what is the purpose of being sober and vigilant? And if the Devil needs permission to get you to start with, then what is the purpose of a hedge?

 

[KevinT]

Yes:
Job 1:8 LITV (Greens)
8 And Jehovah said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job because there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil?

I think LSV is even clearer that it was more than just taking note of Job:

Job 1:8 LSV (Literal Standard Version)
8 And YHWH says to Satan, “Have you set your heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?”


Commentator John Gill gives a good explanation of the tone and context of the verse and passage:

Job 1:8
And the Lord said unto Satan, hast thou considered my servant Job,.... Or, "hast thou put thine heart on my servant" (p); not in a way of love and affection to him, to do him any good or service, there being an original and implacable enmity in this old serpent to the seed of the woman; but rather his heart was set upon him in a way of desire to have him in his hands, to do him all the mischief he could, as the desire of his heart was toward Peter, Luk_22:31 but the sense of the question is, since thou sayest thou hast been walking up and down in the earth, hast thou not taken notice of Job, and cast an eye upon him, and wished in thine heart to have him in thine hands to do him hurt? I know that thou hast; hast thou not contrived in thine heart how to attack him, tempt him, and draw him from my service, and into sins and snares, in order to reproach and accuse him? thou hast, but all in vain; and so it is a sarcasm upon Satan, as well as an expression of indignation at him for such an attempt upon him, and as anticipating his accusation of Job; for it is as if he should further say, I know he is in thine eye, and upon thine heart, now thou art come with a full intent to accuse and charge him; so Jarchi, "lest thou set thine heart", &c. so as "to have a good will to accuse him"

Barnes quotes Schultens:
Hast thou considered my servant Job? - Margin, "Set thine heart on." The margin is a literal translation of the Hebrew. Schultens remarks on this, that it means more than merely to observe or to look at - since it is abundantly manifest from the following verses that Satan "had" attentively considered Job, and had been desirous of injuring him. It means, according to him, to set himself against Job, to fix the heart on him with an intention to injure him, and yahweh means to ask whether Satan had done this

Clarks Commentary:
Verse Job 1:8 (NAS)
8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
"Hast thou considered my servant Job — Literally, Hast thou placed thy heart on my servant Job? Hast thou viewed his conduct with attention, whilst thou wert roaming about, seeking whom thou mightest devour? viz., the careless, prayerless, and profligate in general."

Smith's Commentary has an interesting take on the word "considered:"
Have you considered my servant Job ( Job 1:8 (NAS)

8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."

God's doing a little bragging now. He's got one down there who really loves Him. He's a perfect man. He hates evil. Praying for his children.

The word "considered" is the word that I'm interested in, though, because it is actually a military term. It is the term that is used of a general who is studying a city before he attacks it in order that he might develop his strategy whereby he can destroy the city. So he's watching when they open the gates, the method of which they open the gates. How do the people come out? What gates are the most easily attacked? And he's developing his whole strategy in order that he might attack and destroy the city. That's the Hebrew word, the background of the word. It's a military term. "Have you been studying Job? Seeking to develop the strategy whereby you might destroy him? Have you considered my servant Job?"

But I think it is evidence that Satan had already attempted to do Job harm and was prevented from doing so by the hedge. It also seems that the purpose of Satan on that day was to accuse God of protecting Job, and that was the only reason Job worshiped Him.

Thanks for the discussion!

Loved this deep dive. Thanks so much!

KT

 

[KevinT]

Exactly. Very perceptive. This is the issue with many who come into the Book of Job. Many hold to the concept that "God is in control of everything" and that nothing happens without his authentication, authorization, and, to some extent, even orchestration. I disagree. There is the "course of nature" at play and most of what happens falls within this rule. As to sovereignty and control... yes, absolutely. He can do anything. But it seems that more often than not, He chooses not to and opts to simply let nature take its course.
But when people arrive at Job, they assume that since "God controls everything," then Satan had to have permission to do what he did. I think all Satan needed was for the hedge to come down. The permission was standing since the fall.

I wrote a post on this forum, here, where I explored the ideas of God's actions, and how that relates to the natural process of the universe. You might find it interesting.

But if you think about:

1 Peter 5:8 LSV
8 Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the Devil walks around as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may swallow up,

What is the purpose of being sober and vigilant if the Devil cannot get to us without God's permission?
In reverse, if God gave the Devil permission then there is a purpose. And if God gave the Devil permission, what good is being sober and vigilant?
And there is the hedge concept. If there are hedges, then what is the purpose of being sober and vigilant? And if the Devil needs permission to get you to start with, then what is the purpose of a hedge?

I think we are on the same page in this regard. It would help keep the conversation going if I disagreed with you, but honestly I can't. Ha!

Best wishes,

KT

 

[Yarddog]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

Job is a book in which God uses Satan to lead Job from a self righteous state to true faith and a righteousness grant by God.

 

[KevinT]

Job is a book in which God uses Satan to lead Job from a self righteous state to true faith and a righteousness grant by God.

Are you saying that God induced Satan to act as he did? Or that God took the opportunity of Satan's accusations to refine Job?

KT

 

[Yarddog]

Are you saying that God induced Satan to act as he did? Or that God took the opportunity of Satan's accusations to refine Job?

KT

I believe God can do either. The important part was Job learning true faith. I also believe the Job is an allegorical story of man's journey to God's rest. Righteousness.

 

[KevinT]

KevinT said:

Are you saying that God induced Satan to act as he did? Or that God took the opportunity of Satan's accusations to refine Job?

I believe God can do either. The important part was Job learning true faith. I also believe the Job is an allegorical story of man's journey to God's rest. Righteousness.

I can't agree with the idea that God induced Satan to act against Job.

James 1:13-14 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Best wishes,

Kevin

 

[Yarddog]

I can't agree with the idea that God induced Satan to act against Job.



Best wishes,

Kevin

Did Satan tempt Job without asking permission? No.

 

[KevinT]

Did Satan tempt Job without asking permission? No.

I agree that God allowed Satan to tempt Job. Do you see allowing Satan as the same as inducing Satan?

KT

 

[Yarddog]

I agree that God allowed Satan to tempt Job. Do you see allowing Satan as the same as inducing Satan?

KT

I think God knew exactly what would happen. Why would God bring up Job to Satan?

 

[KevinT]

I think God knew exactly what would happen. Why would God bring up Job to Satan?

Hmmm..... I'll have to think about this aspect of the story.



KT

 

[Clare73]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.
Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.

[*]Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
[*]Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
[*]Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.

Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing (injustice, unfairness) - Job 1:22.

We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.
Question:
Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God.

Job never said he suffered "unjustly," he did not charge God with injustice.

But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

Job did not accuse God of wrongdoing therein, he only described his pain.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Best verses in Job

Job 41:5​

“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6 Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”​

​

He repented - you only repent when you have sinned.​

​

Job 41:12 Now the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; for he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand yoke of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys. 13 He also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 And he called the name of the first emimah, the name of the second Keziah, and the name of the third Keren-Happuch. 15 In all the land were found no women so beautiful as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them an inheritance among their brothers.16 After this Job lived one hundred and forty years, and saw his children and grandchildren for four generations. 17 So Job died, old and full of days.​

​

After repentance comes forgiveness and restoration. If you are going to preach and teach on Job - don't forget the ending - until you do, you are only preaching half a messege.

 

[Guojing]

I just got done reading (listening) through the book of Job. I have some thoughts and wanted to get the feedback of others. I know there is another thread right now on Job here, but I didn't want to hijack the direction taken there.

Here is my take on Job.

• Job's understanding of the world is that:
  • God is all powerful, and that everything that happens is directly in accordance to God's wishes.
  • God rewards the good and punishes the evil
  • That he, Job, has lived a good life and is therefore deserving of reward.
• Job is then struck by disaster and loss, and he is confronted with making sense of everything. His world model doesn't compute, the logic of his understanding doesn't fit.
• Job's friends try to solve the problem by accusing him of wrong doing.
• Job tries to solve the problem by blaming God for being unjust.
• We, the audience, have extra knowledge that Job's suffering took place because of a conflict initiated by Satan.
• In the end, God shows up and demonstrates that the universe is a complicated place and Job has very little understanding of it. Job acknowledges his ignorance and God forgives him.

Question:

• Job is often portrayed as righteous because he suffered "unjust" misery and kept his faith in God. But wasn't he wrong when he says "The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshaled against me." (Job 6:4)? Job thought that God was the only actor in the scene. "When a land falls into the hands of the wicked, he blindfolds its judges. If it is not he, then who is it?"

KT

Job represents the righteous remnant of Israel during Jacob's trouble, while his 3 friends represent the remaining unrighteous Israel.

Basically Job's story is a story of the nation of Israel, and what will happen during the time of Great Tribulation.

 

[KevinT]

Job represents the righteous remnant of Israel during Jacob's trouble, while his 3 friends represent the remaining unrighteous Israel.

Basically Job's story is a story of the nation of Israel, and what will happen during the time of Great Tribulation.

It is interesting to compare and contrast things, for example a rock vs a feather. But that doesn't mean that one of the object's original purpose was to exist for this comparison. So the book of Job, which was composed long before the time of Jacob, might have interesting points that can be used to compare to Israel, I do not believe it was written with that intent.

Best wishes,
KT