Those who denounce Paul

[ananda]

Yet Jesus set the bread of Moses apart from the bread of God:

"Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”"

Then, of course, Jesus claimed to be the 'bread of life' sent from God, and the people started grumbling about this preposterous claim, and Jesus replied, "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die." (All verses from John 6)

So it's not the bread of Moses that Jesus was offering.

Messiah was not here stating that we should no longer hear Torah-Law, He was merely clarifying the origin of Torah-Law.

Moses was not the origin of the Torah - YHWH was. I believe Messiah is the embodiment and manifestation of the Torah as a man.

We listen to Moses since He was the conduit by which YHWH delivered His Torah. We do not listen to the Pharisees since they originated their own anti-Torah traditions.

 

[seeingeyes]

We've discussed this before.

I believe that diligence in observation of the Law is all that is necessary. Not perfection.

Then you denounce James as well.

"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment."

 

[ananda]

In other words you adhere to the "anti-law" by observing what YOU believe is important. The Pharisees did the same.

So following YHWH's Law to the best of my ability is now "anti-Law"? When did avoiding sin become sin?

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. - 1Jn 3:4

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! - Isa 5:20

 

[ananda]

Then you denounce James as well.

"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment."

No, I do not denounce James. I merely disagree with your interpretation of James.

Just because we fail on some points does not mean that we should abandon it altogether.

 

[seeingeyes]

No, I do not denounce James. I merely disagree with your interpretation of James.

Just because we fail on some points does not mean that we should abandon it altogether.

My interpretation is irrelevant, yes. But you say that perfection is not necessary, and James says it is.

What is the 'law of liberty' in your estimation?

 

[ananda]

My interpretation is irrelevant, yes. But you say that perfection is not necessary, and James says it is.

What is the 'law of liberty' in your estimation?

I disagree that James is saying "perfection is necessary"

"But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul." Jos 22:5

"And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes ... " Ex 15:26 cf Deu 6:17. Deu 11:13, 11:22, 28:1

Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. - Prov 119:4
​

The "law of liberty" is liberty from sin, not liberty from doing what's right. YHWH, right before He gave the 10 commandments, stated that He brought the Israelites out of the "house of bondage" (Ex 20:2) ... only to bring them under bondage again? No, He brought them out of bondage to sin (forced to sin in Egypt) to the liberty of doing what's right.

 

[seeingeyes]

I disagree that James is saying "perfection is necessary"

I guess I'm not understanding...what do you think this means: "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it."

 

[Hentenza]

So following YHWH's Law to the best of my ability is now "anti-Law"?

Your ability does not measure up. Never has.

When did avoiding sin become sin?

You are sinner and will remain a sinner until death. Only faith in Jesus can atone for your sins. You are incapable of stopping sinning.

Romans 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, [b]weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”


Who are those whose lawless deeds will be forgiven and whose sins have been covered? Who is the blessed man whose sin the Lord will not take into account?

 

[Hentenza]

I disagree that James is saying "perfection is necessary"

"But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul." Jos 22:5

"And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes ... " Ex 15:26 cf Deu 6:17. Deu 11:13, 11:22, 28:1

Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. - Prov 119:4
​

The "law of liberty" is liberty from sin, not liberty from doing what's right. YHWH, right before He gave the 10 commandments, stated that He brought the Israelites out of the "house of bondage" (Ex 20:2) ... only to bring them under bondage again? No, He brought them out of bondage to sin (forced to sin in Egypt) to the liberty of doing what's right.

lol contradictions? The law of liberty is liberty from sin and yet you sin. Not liberty from doing what's right, and yet you do what is not right. This is why Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and why what you are proposing is equally hypocritical.

 

[from scratch]

Messiah was not here stating that we should no longer hear Torah-Law, He was merely clarifying the origin of Torah-Law.

Moses was not the origin of the Torah - YHWH was. I believe Messiah is the embodiment and manifestation of the Torah as a man.

We listen to Moses since He was the conduit by which YHWH delivered His Torah. We do not listen to the Pharisees since they originated their own anti-Torah traditions.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. JN 1:17. This doesn't sound like Jesus taught the law to me.

 

[from scratch]

So following YHWH's Law to the best of my ability is now "anti-Law"? When did avoiding sin become sin?

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. - 1Jn 3:4

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! - Isa 5:20

Avoiding sin isn't obligation to the law. Sin was before the law.

 

[ananda]

I guess I'm not understanding...what do you think this means: "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it."

I believe James is merely teaching that anyone who fails on one point of the Law is liable/accountable for paying the debt that is required as penalty in all of the Law. (For those who have accepted Messiah and walks with Him in faith and faithfulness, that debt is transferred to Him).

This is not a verse that teaches against following the Law, for James, two verses later (2:12) states that we must speak & keep/do-well, as we will be judged by the Law.

 

[from scratch]

No, I do not denounce James. I merely disagree with your interpretation of James.

Just because we fail on some points does not mean that we should abandon it altogether.

What covenant are you obligated to as a Christian?

 

[from scratch]

I disagree that James is saying "perfection is necessary"

"But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul." Jos 22:5

"And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes ... " Ex 15:26 cf Deu 6:17. Deu 11:13, 11:22, 28:1

Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. - Prov 119:4
​

The "law of liberty" is liberty from sin, not liberty from doing what's right. YHWH, right before He gave the 10 commandments, stated that He brought the Israelites out of the "house of bondage" (Ex 20:2) ... only to bring them under bondage again? No, He brought them out of bondage to sin (forced to sin in Egypt) to the liberty of doing what's right.

Do you sin? If so then you don't have liberty from sin.

 

[ananda]

Your ability does not measure up. Never has. You are sinner and will remain a sinner until death. Only faith in Jesus can atone for your sins. You are incapable of stopping sinning. Romans 8 ... Romans 4

So saith Pharisee Paul.

Who are those whose lawless deeds will be forgiven and whose sins have been covered? Who is the blessed man whose sin the Lord will not take into account?

The righteous are forgiven their inadvertent lawless deeds upon repentance.

"Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life" Eze 13:22

 

[Metal Minister]

Your ability does not measure up. Never has.

You are sinner and will remain a sinner until death. Only faith in Jesus can atone for your sins. You are incapable of stopping sinning.

Romans 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, [b]weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 4
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

Who are those whose lawless deeds will be forgiven and whose sins have been covered? Who is the blessed man whose sin the Lord will not take into account?

C'mon brother, that was written by Paul! It doesn't count! Lol!

 

[Hentenza]

So saith Pharisee Paul.

Paul is not a pharisee. We've been through this one already. Paul is not in disagreement with any other NT writer. All NT writers are inspired by the Holy Spirit in their NT writings.

The righteous are forgiven their inadvertent lawless deeds upon repentance.

"Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life" Eze 13:22

The heart of the righteous is that one freely given by God through grace by faith in the Son. The law plays no part in the life of the Christian and it cannot (and never could) atone for sin. Only Christ can.

 

[ananda]

lol contradictions? The law of liberty is liberty from sin and yet you sin. Not liberty from doing what's right, and yet you do what is not right. This is why Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and why what you are proposing is equally hypocritical.

Excuse me?

I try to do what's right, and what's right is defined by YHWH. This includes worshiping Him alone, not having any other gods, not blaspheming, resting on Sabbath, etc. Pretty straightforward.

Yet you would have me believe that if I even try doing right, it is actually wrong, and that my attempts are hypocritical and 'not right' and thus, sin? When did up become down, and right become wrong?

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isa 5:20

 

[Hentenza]

C'mon brother, that was written by Paul! It doesn't count! Lol!

lol but it does count.

 

[ananda]

Paul is not a pharisee. We've been through this one already.

Paul said "I am a Pharisee". Either he told the truth, or he lied, or he was acting (which is also a form of deception).

Paul is not in disagreement with any other NT writer. All NT writers are inspired by the Holy Spirit in their NT writings.

No comment.

The heart of the righteous is that one freely given by God through grace by faith in the Son. The law plays no part in the life of the Christian and it cannot (and never could) atone for sin. Only Christ can.

So saith Pharisee Paul.