Those who denounce Paul

[Metal Minister]

Is Peter infallible?

No, but the Holy Spirit is. Or are you claiming He isn't? Although I guess we could throw out most of the New Testament then right? Anything written by Paul, Luke and Peter.

 

[ananda]

Neither. Paul became many things to bring people to Christ. This is why the "why" is imperative to understand the statement.

Neither?

Was he acting?

Did Messiah ever act lawless to gain the lawless? Was Messiah acting lawful to gain the lawful?

 

[Metal Minister]

Can't we say the same about "Joseph Smith haters" or "Ellen White haters"?

Were they apostles of Jesus?

 

[ananda]

I think there's a big difference between a Pharisee and a Pharisee who knows how wretched he is:“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

A tax collector is not redeemed because he collects taxes, and a Pharisee isn't damned because he trained his whole life in religious matters.

Our God sees the heart, and that's what we should be looking at, too, if we ever hope to make a right judgement.

Understood ... but Messiah didn't warn me about tax collectors. He warned me against following the erroneous teachings of the Pharisees.

 

[ananda]

No, but the Holy Spirit is. Or are you claiming He isn't? Although I guess we could throw out most of the New Testament then right? Anything written by Paul, Luke and Peter.

The Holy Spirit is indeed infallible. However, Peter wasn't. That's all I'm saying.

 

[ananda]

Were they apostles of Jesus?

They claimed to be His prophets.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Understood ... but Messiah didn't warn me about tax collectors.
He warned me against following the erroneous teachings of the Pharisees.

As did the Apostle Paul.

Btw, did you see this post on another thread about Paul being possesed of a demon instead of the Holy Spirit of Jesus?
First I have ever heard of this being said:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7770292/#post64131188
What Gospel did Paul preach

Originally Posted by Lovely Jar

Paul was misled and possessed by a demon. Not by Jesus.
​

Jesus said if anyone comes to you and claims to be sent by him, performs signs and miracles, etc... do not believe them.

That should be it for the Christian. Jesus said it! But Paul follows the exact pattern that Jesus warned not to believe.
​

.

 

[Metal Minister]

So, in conclusion, you are saying Paul lied about being a Pharisee?

No, but he also said that everything he counted as righteousness while a pharisee, he then counted as "skubalon", when he was saved.

 

[Hentenza]

Neither?

Was he acting?

Did Messiah ever act lawless to gain the lawless? Was Messiah acting lawful to gain the lawful?

AS long as you continue to ignore the why, inane questions like these will remain. If we follow your logic then God pretended to be human in order for humanity to kill Him.

 

[Metal Minister]

They claimed to be His prophets.

And yet are not. (I could go further, but it wouldn't be very nice. )

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by netzarim

So, in conclusion, you are saying Paul lied about being a Pharisee?
​

No, but he also said that everything he counted as righteousness while a pharisee, he then counted as "skubalon", when he was saved.

He must have skipped that part



.

 

[ananda]

No, but he also said that everything he counted as righteousness while a pharisee, he then counted as "skubalon", when he was saved.

Whatever the case may be in regards to his pronouncements elsewhere, in Acts 23, he states on record that he is, then and there, currently a Pharisee. This was spoken well into his "Christian ministry".

Are you saying that men can't be double minded (James 1:8, 4:8)?

 

[ananda]

AS long as you continue to ignore the why, inane questions like these will remain. If we follow your logic then God pretended to be human in order for humanity to kill Him.

This is becoming more like NASA every day

 

[seeingeyes]

Understood ... but Messiah didn't warn me about tax collectors. He warned me against following the erroneous teachings of the Pharisees.

Which teachings do you believe Paul taught that were consistent with the teachings of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned?

After all, he did not condemn every single thing they ever said. In fact he told the crowds: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do."

 

[Hentenza]

Whatever the case may be in regards to his pronouncements elsewhere, in Acts 23, he states on record that he is, then and there, currently a Pharisee. This was spoken well into his "Christian ministry".

Are you saying that men can't be double minded (James 1:8, 4:8)?

lol Another "borrowed" out of context verse.

 

[ananda]

Which teachings do you believe Paul taught that were consistent with the teachings of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned?

After all, he did not condemn every single thing they ever said. In fact he told the crowds: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do."

Exactly.

We are to listen to the Pharisees when they accurately teach from Moses/the Law ("whatever they tell you from Moses").

We are not to listen to the Pharisees when they teach anti-Law ("what they do"), nor should we listen to their traditions which make void the Law. This was why Messiah constantly preached against the Pharisees in the gospels - they were anti-Law!

 

[Hentenza]

Exactly.

We are to listen to the Pharisees when they accurately teach from Moses/the Law ("whatever they tell you from Moses").

We are not to listen to the Pharisees when they teach anti-Law ("what they do"), nor should we listen to their traditions which make void the Law. This was why Messiah constantly preached against the Pharisees in the gospels - they were anti-Law!

Throughout the history of Israel there were considerably more periods of "anti-law," to borrow your term. Israel corporately had fallen into this trap because the law was weak and could not do what Jesus did.

You claim to follow the law but, in fact, you do not practice the law as God intended but merely play lip service to it. No one, other than Christ, was able to follow the law and those that promote the law are no different.

 

[seeingeyes]

Exactly.

We are to listen to the Pharisees when they accurately teach from Moses/the Law ("whatever they tell you from Moses").

We are not to listen to the Pharisees when they teach anti-Law ("what they do"), nor should we listen to their traditions which make void the Law. This was why Messiah constantly preached against the Pharisees in the gospels - they were anti-Law!

Yet Jesus set the bread of Moses apart from the bread of God:

"Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”"

Then, of course, Jesus claimed to be the 'bread of life' sent from God, and the people started grumbling about this preposterous claim, and Jesus replied, "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die." (All verses from John 6)

So it's not the bread of Moses that Jesus was offering.

 

[ananda]

Throughout the history of Israel there were considerably more periods of "anti-law," to borrow your term. Israel corporately had fallen into this trap because the law was weak and could not do what Jesus did.

You claim to follow the law but, in fact, you do not practice the law as God intended but merely play lip service to it. No one, other than Christ, was able to follow the law and those that promote the law are no different.

We've discussed this before.

I believe that diligence in observation of the Law is all that is necessary. Not perfection.

 

[Hentenza]

We've discussed this before.

I believe that diligence in observation of the Law is all that is necessary. Not perfection.

In other words you adhere to the "anti-law" by observing what YOU believe is important. The Pharisees did the same.