Those knowledgable of the Bible - please help me out!!!

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AJB4

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Guys like...Jacob4707, Repentant, Protoevangel... Actually, anyone who's up for a discussion. You guys know about Orthodox positions on stuff better than I would.

Futile mission though it may be, I'm trying to discuss Orthodoxy over at the CoC board with a certain CoC elder (one with the belief that all other churches apart from the CoC are false).

I shouldn't be doing it probably...but I got kind of hooked.

In particular, I'd say pay attention to post #69...
http://foru.ms/t3957146&page=7
 

SaintPhotios

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Sooo.... exactly what angle are you approaching this debate from? Not to detract from the theological nature of the discussion.... but debate is a science in and of itself. So what are you debating at this time?

It's not that I don't want to read the whole thread.... but there's a million ways to debate the Campbellite position from an Orthodox perspective. Do you think you could narrow it down a little?
 
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rusmeister

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With all due respect, AJ...

You should take the age and experience of your opponent into account. If the person is much older and/or much more experienced, it would be like a sheep debating with a wolf.

You need solid ground of faith to stand on before you can truly defend a position. As long as you don't really hold a position, you are liable to be defeated.
 
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Akathist

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Reading post 69 as requested I see a fundamental problem that happens when one debates someone who is not Orthodox.

They have no understanding of our beliefs about the Body of Christ being the Orthodox Church. The Apostles and other followers were sent the Holy Spirit to guide us. They were the Church. Christ is also the Church. As Christ is in us, He embodies the Church. The Church is the body of believers and over the centuries it is the body of believers who fight over and over to maintain our traditions because we are called to do so by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with the other comments here. You are not strong enough in Orthodox beliefs to defend the faith just yet. In fact, I have seen others who (regardless of age btw) have been burnt up in such debates and ended up leaving the catechumanate or stopped being an enquirer.

It is better to spend this time reading and learning about the faith. Reading the debates that other Orthodox Christians are a part of can be a learning experience too. But it is important that you never take what any of us say as being the full truth. If a bunch of us say the same thing...well.. that is a sign it is probably right. ;)
 
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Hoankan

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I have to agree with Akathist. It's easy to give into the temptation to debate when one is not ready. It's our pride saying that we should do this debate and that we're ready when truth is usually very different and we end up paying dearly for it.
 
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repentant

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Guys like...Jacob4707, Repentant, Protoevangel... Actually, anyone who's up for a discussion. You guys know about Orthodox positions on stuff better than I would.

Futile mission though it may be, I'm trying to discuss Orthodoxy over at the CoC board with a certain CoC elder (one with the belief that all other churches apart from the CoC are false).

I shouldn't be doing it probably...but I got kind of hooked.

In particular, I'd say pay attention to post #69...
http://foru.ms/t3957146&page=7

I am kind of shocked I was one of the named..but anyway, after reading what he said in 69..ask him what the NT says about the Church being the pillar and foundation of Truth, and ask him if that was ever said about any of the Apostles. I wonder what he will say about that...or if you like, I can do it..of course there is alot more that can be said, but we can start small.
 
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AJB4

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I am kind of shocked I was one of the named..but anyway, after reading what he said in 69..ask him what the NT says about the Church being the pillar and foundation of Truth, and ask him if that was ever said about any of the Apostles. I wonder what he will say about that...or if you like, I can do it..of course there is alot more that can be said, but we can start small.
Don't be shocked! ;) You always have something to say about Orthodox positions on stuff. :D

Alright, I'll say that. Thanks for the tip.

Akathist said:
Reading post 69 as requested I see a fundamental problem that happens when one debates someone who is not Orthodox.

They have no understanding of our beliefs about the Body of Christ being the Orthodox Church. The Apostles and other followers were sent the Holy Spirit to guide us. They were the Church. Christ is also the Church. As Christ is in us, He embodies the Church. The Church is the body of believers and over the centuries it is the body of believers who fight over and over to maintain our traditions because we are called to do so by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with the other comments here. You are not strong enough in Orthodox beliefs to defend the faith just yet. In fact, I have seen others who (regardless of age btw) have been burnt up in such debates and ended up leaving the catechumanate or stopped being an enquirer.

It is better to spend this time reading and learning about the faith. Reading the debates that other Orthodox Christians are a part of can be a learning experience too. But it is important that you never take what any of us say as being the full truth. If a bunch of us say the same thing...well.. that is a sign it is probably right. ;)


Thanks for the tip. I will cease these foolish debates...
just after I post what Repentant said. ;)
 
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Jacob4707

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A story that is probably not true, but makes a point:

Some people were standing on the beach when they heard a man cry out: "Help! I'm drowning!"

While they watched the man struggle and struggle, the lifeguard continued to sit in his spot, though he was watching the man.

"Go get him! Save him! Do something!" the people shouted to the lifeguard.

But the lifeguard continued sitting and watching the man.

Finally, when the drowning man had exhausted himself and was starting to sink, the lifeguard dove into the water, quickly swam to the man, and just as quickly hauled him back safely to shore.

"Why didn't you save him when he first cried for help?" the people asked the lifeguard.

"If I had gotten to him when he was still flailing and panicking and had his strength, he might have pulled us both under in his efforts to swim. I had to wait until he had no more fight left in him. Then I could safely get ahold of him when he would no longer resist me and inadvertantly fight against my efforts to save him."

- - -

As long as your CoC or other friends are still strong in their dogmas and doctrines about Sola Scriptura and inerrancy and needing "no Creed but Christ" and "no book but the Bible" and "no Traditions of men," then your debates will be like the above story, in which you very likely could lose or weaken your faith.

Or your debates will be like the proverb: "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." (Plus, you get all covered with mud, etc.)

Wait till their foundational doctrines start to evidence or manifest to themselves some serious cracks. After you have begun to seriously live the Orthodox life, with or without their criticisms and arguments, but being faithful in prayer and in the life of the Church, and you persevere in these things and in being at peace within yourself and with all men, then when they come to you for help re: why what they have been taught and/or believed does not jive with history or even the Bible itself, then they might be ready to listen to another point of view.

Or if they ask questions, or even if they argue or criticize you, instead of getting in an argument with them, give them an irenic (i.e., peaceful) book or booklet on the subject. There are several out there that discuss or present the Orthodox Church and her beliefs without attacking Protestantism. E.g.:
  • Timothy Ware's THE ORTHODOX CHURCH
  • Frederica Mathewes-Green's books
  • LIGHT FROM THE CHRISTIAN EAST: AN INTRODUCTION TO THE ORTHODOX TRADITION by James R. Payton, Jr.
  • COMMON GROUND by Jordan Bajis
  • THE MOUNTAIN OF SILENCE
  • FATHER ARSENY: PRIEST, PRISONER, SPIRITUAL FATHER
Henry Chadwick's THE EARLY CHURCH is by a non-Orthodox church historian and might give CoC people an overview of Church history that will alter their preconceptions.

Avoid the polemical/argumentative books/authors like Clark Carlton and Matthew Gallatin and Frank Schaeffer and Michael Whelton. I tend to find that Regina Orthodox Press books can often be argumentative, and not always effectively so. (At least that's my view of some of these books.)

If they don't want to read it, that's fine. You continue to pray and live your faith.

This doesn't mean that all confrontation and debate is useless or unnecessary. Some converts are won in that manner.

But as Archbishop +Dmitri wrote in his book on the Parables: "Thus, when we are only beginners in the Christian way and not yet strengthened and armed against attack, we should not make a show of what we have nor attempt to convince others. We might easily be defeated by skilled detractors and end up full of doubt. Or we could appear proud and self-righteous. A life lived in complete accordance with the truth is finally the most convincing argument for the Gospel."
 
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- DRA -

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Originally Posted by -DRA-

My concern with these understandings goes back to Jesus' promise to send the Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that He promised to send the Spirit to guide the apostles - not the church - to all truth. To me, it seems the whole Orthodox system is built upon an erroneous understanding of Jesus' promise to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles. By mistakenly applying the promise to the church, the door is open for authority coming from the church, instead of looking to God's word to be "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:17 NKJV). In essence, the Orthodox rendering of truth is that the Scriptures + Orthodox Tradition = Truth. Sorry, but that reasoning stands opposed to the teaching of the New Testament.


I am kind of shocked I was one of the named..but anyway, after reading what he said in 69..ask him what the NT says about the Church being the pillar and foundation of Truth, and ask him if that was ever said about any of the Apostles. I wonder what he will say about that...or if you like, I can do it..of course there is alot more that can be said, but we can start small.

ABJ4's Response (as coached by Repentant)

1 Timothy 3:15 says "...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.".

You would probably be correct in saying that it was initially the Apostles and not the church (even though the Apostles were a part of the church, interestingly enough) that were guided into all truth. BUT, the above scripture seems to indicate that since the church is the pillar and ground (Greek, hedraiōma, meaning support) of the truth, it would be the church that preserves the truth, no?


DRA's Response to Repentant & ABJ4

First off, please be gracious and allow me to discuss spiritual matters with you as we on the Restoration Forum have been to you in discussing matters with us on our Forum.

Second, concerning the discussion ABJ4 asks your advice about, he began the OP with this thought: "...OK, first up, I am a Church of Christ-goer, and have been my entire life, and will probably go for the rest of my life. However, lately, I've come to the conclusion that I DON'T believe that the Church of Christ is the only church that serves Jesus (as many think they are) and I DON'T believe that they are the one true church, in which only it's members go to heaven." ABJ4 has initiated several discussions along these same lines as he has tried to find an angle to undermine the "one church" concept in the Scripture (i.e. one body = one church according to Eph. 1:22-23; 4:4).

As ABJ4 very well knows, I will provide a scriptural basis for what I teach. I believe that is exactly what God expects from all of us per 1 Peter 4:11a. I indeed believe that Jesus established His church He promised to build (i.e. Matt. 16:18) in Acts 2, and that He adds the saved to it (per Acts 2:47) -- not to some man-made "church," built and established later upon the teachings and traditions of men (specifically, without God's approval).

Before addressing 1 Timothy 3:15 and discussing the pillar and ground of the truth, I think we should first consider the foundation of the truth. In 1 Corinthians 3:11, in a general way, Jesus Christ is presented as being the foundation. And, in Ephesians 2:20, being more specific, the foundation is made up of the apostles and prophets - with Jesus being the chief corner stone. I believe it is upon this foundation that the church (those called out by God) - the pillar and ground of the truth is set (i.e. 1 Tim. 3:15). With these passages in mind, Repentant's concern about where the apostles fit into the picture is addressed. Their teaching is a part of the foundation. Jesus assured that it would be when He promised to send the Holy Spirit to them in John chapters 14-16, which, by the way, Repentant did NOT address.

As for the truth that the church supports, that's where 2 Timothy 3:16-17 come into play. As previously pointed out, "All Scripture" is that which makes us "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (NKJV). While it is true that Scriptures include the traditions passed down from the apostles' teaching (i.e. 2 Thess. 3:6), any traditions that originated outside of Scripture are nothing more than the traditions of men (without authority from God). Therefore, those traditions must be opposed by the faithful (Jude 3). In a nutshell, that's what I propose. Stick to the truth. Nothing more. Nothing less. Does anyone have a problem with just the truth? :confused:
 
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Jacob4707

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Originally Posted by -DRA-

My concern with these understandings goes back to Jesus' promise to send the Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that He promised to send the Spirit to guide the apostles - not the church - to all truth. To me, it seems the whole Orthodox system is built upon an erroneous understanding of Jesus' promise to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles. By mistakenly applying the promise to the church, the door is open for authority coming from the church, instead of looking to God's word to be "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:17 NKJV). In essence, the Orthodox rendering of truth is that the Scriptures + Orthodox Tradition = Truth. Sorry, but that reasoning stands opposed to the teaching of the New Testament.




ABJ4's Response (as coached by Repentant)

1 Timothy 3:15 says "...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.".

You would probably be correct in saying that it was initially the Apostles and not the church (even though the Apostles were a part of the church, interestingly enough) that were guided into all truth. BUT, the above scripture seems to indicate that since the church is the pillar and ground (Greek, hedraiōma, meaning support) of the truth, it would be the church that preserves the truth, no?


DRA's Response to Repentant & ABJ4

First off, please be gracious and allow me to discuss spiritual matters with you as we on the Restoration Forum have been to you in discussing matters with us on our Forum.

Second, concerning the discussion ABJ4 asks your advice about, he began the OP with this thought: "...OK, first up, I am a Church of Christ-goer, and have been my entire life, and will probably go for the rest of my life. However, lately, I've come to the conclusion that I DON'T believe that the Church of Christ is the only church that serves Jesus (as many think they are) and I DON'T believe that they are the one true church, in which only it's members go to heaven." ABJ4 has initiated several discussions along these same lines as he has tried to find an angle to undermine the "one church" concept in the Scripture (i.e. one body = one church according to Eph. 1:22-23; 4:4).

As ABJ4 very well knows, I will provide a scriptural basis for what I teach. I believe that is exactly what God expects from all of us per 1 Peter 4:11a. I indeed believe that Jesus established His church He promised to build (i.e. Matt. 16:18) in Acts 2, and that He adds the saved to it (per Acts 2:47) -- not to some man-made "church," built and established later upon the teachings and traditions of men (specifically, without God's approval).

Before addressing 1 Timothy 3:15 and discussing the pillar and ground of the truth, I think we should first consider the foundation of the truth. In 1 Corinthians 3:11, in a general way, Jesus Christ is presented as being the foundation. And, in Ephesians 2:20, being more specific, the foundation is made up of the apostles and prophets - with Jesus being the chief corner stone. I believe it is upon this foundation that the church (those called out by God) - the pillar and ground of the truth is set (i.e. 1 Tim. 3:15). With these passages in mind, Repentant's concern about where the apostles fit into the picture is addressed. Their teaching is a part of the foundation. Jesus assured that it would be when He promised to send the Holy Spirit to them in John chapters 14-16, which, by the way, Repentant did NOT address.

As for the truth that the church supports, that's where 2 Timothy 3:16-17 come into play. As previously pointed out, "All Scripture" is that which makes us "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (NKJV). While it is true that Scriptures include the traditions passed down from the apostles' teaching (i.e. 2 Thess. 3:6), any traditions that originated outside of Scripture are nothing more than the traditions of men (without authority from God). Therefore, those traditions must be opposed by the faithful (Jude 3). In a nutshell, that's what I propose. Stick to the truth. Nothing more. Nothing less. Does anyone have a problem with just the truth? :confused:

No problem at all.

Just a reminder, though, that the rules for TAW are as follows (note that debate here is only allowed between Orthodox; non-Orthodox can fellowship or ask questions):

The Ancient Way Forum Specific Rules

The Ancient Way is a forum for Orthodox Christians and catechumens belonging to a canonical Orthodox Church, which is in communion with one or more of the Patriarchs listed at http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/

Rules For Posting In 'The Ancient Way" Forum:
1. Non-Orthodox are permitted only fellowship and honest, sincere questions. No debating, teaching or preaching will be tolerated.
2. All posters will treat each other respectfully.
3. Debate between Orthodox allowed as long as the other rules are followed.
4. Active Promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of canonical Orthodox Churches are prohibited.
5. All members claiming to be clergy must be verified with staff.
6. Only members belonging to a canonical Orthodox Church (as outlined above), will be considered for Moderators of TAW.
 
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AJB4

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Originally Posted by -DRA-

My concern with these understandings goes back to Jesus' promise to send the Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that He promised to send the Spirit to guide the apostles - not the church - to all truth. To me, it seems the whole Orthodox system is built upon an erroneous understanding of Jesus' promise to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles. By mistakenly applying the promise to the church, the door is open for authority coming from the church, instead of looking to God's word to be "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:17 NKJV). In essence, the Orthodox rendering of truth is that the Scriptures + Orthodox Tradition = Truth. Sorry, but that reasoning stands opposed to the teaching of the New Testament.




ABJ4's Response (as coached by Repentant)

1 Timothy 3:15 says "...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.".

You would probably be correct in saying that it was initially the Apostles and not the church (even though the Apostles were a part of the church, interestingly enough) that were guided into all truth. BUT, the above scripture seems to indicate that since the church is the pillar and ground (Greek, hedraiōma, meaning support) of the truth, it would be the church that preserves the truth, no?


DRA's Response to Repentant & ABJ4

First off, please be gracious and allow me to discuss spiritual matters with you as we on the Restoration Forum have been to you in discussing matters with us on our Forum.

Second, concerning the discussion ABJ4 asks your advice about, he began the OP with this thought: "...OK, first up, I am a Church of Christ-goer, and have been my entire life, and will probably go for the rest of my life. However, lately, I've come to the conclusion that I DON'T believe that the Church of Christ is the only church that serves Jesus (as many think they are) and I DON'T believe that they are the one true church, in which only it's members go to heaven." ABJ4 has initiated several discussions along these same lines as he has tried to find an angle to undermine the "one church" concept in the Scripture (i.e. one body = one church according to Eph. 1:22-23; 4:4).

As ABJ4 very well knows, I will provide a scriptural basis for what I teach. I believe that is exactly what God expects from all of us per 1 Peter 4:11a. I indeed believe that Jesus established His church He promised to build (i.e. Matt. 16:18) in Acts 2, and that He adds the saved to it (per Acts 2:47) -- not to some man-made "church," built and established later upon the teachings and traditions of men (specifically, without God's approval).

Before addressing 1 Timothy 3:15 and discussing the pillar and ground of the truth, I think we should first consider the foundation of the truth. In 1 Corinthians 3:11, in a general way, Jesus Christ is presented as being the foundation. And, in Ephesians 2:20, being more specific, the foundation is made up of the apostles and prophets - with Jesus being the chief corner stone. I believe it is upon this foundation that the church (those called out by God) - the pillar and ground of the truth is set (i.e. 1 Tim. 3:15). With these passages in mind, Repentant's concern about where the apostles fit into the picture is addressed. Their teaching is a part of the foundation. Jesus assured that it would be when He promised to send the Holy Spirit to them in John chapters 14-16, which, by the way, Repentant did NOT address.

As for the truth that the church supports, that's where 2 Timothy 3:16-17 come into play. As previously pointed out, "All Scripture" is that which makes us "complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (NKJV). While it is true that Scriptures include the traditions passed down from the apostles' teaching (i.e. 2 Thess. 3:6), any traditions that originated outside of Scripture are nothing more than the traditions of men (without authority from God). Therefore, those traditions must be opposed by the faithful (Jude 3). In a nutshell, that's what I propose. Stick to the truth. Nothing more. Nothing less. Does anyone have a problem with just the truth? :confused:
-DRA- you should post in here more often. I'm sure that the people here can answer your questions better than me.
 
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- DRA -

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No problem at all.

Just a reminder, though, that the rules for TAW are as follows (note that debate here is only allowed between Orthodox; non-Orthodox can fellowship or ask questions):

The Ancient Way Forum Specific Rules

The Ancient Way is a forum for Orthodox Christians and catechumens belonging to a canonical Orthodox Church, which is in communion with one or more of the Patriarchs listed at http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/

Rules For Posting In 'The Ancient Way" Forum:
1. Non-Orthodox are permitted only fellowship and honest, sincere questions. No debating, teaching or preaching will be tolerated.
2. All posters will treat each other respectfully.
3. Debate between Orthodox allowed as long as the other rules are followed.
4. Active Promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of canonical Orthodox Churches are prohibited.
5. All members claiming to be clergy must be verified with staff.
6. Only members belonging to a canonical Orthodox Church (as outlined above), will be considered for Moderators of TAW.

No problem. Similar rules are in place for the Restoration Forum. However, we have been more gracious about things than you are. We have allowed those of the Orthodox faith to freely participate. Guess that was "our bad."

Anyway, you folks know who I am and that I'm willing to study the Scriptures ... if you are. My conviction is the truth has nothing to hide.

Sorry for intruding. :(
 
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Philothei

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No problem. Similar rules are in place for the Restoration Forum. However, we have been more gracious about things than you are. We have allowed those of the Orthodox faith to freely participate. Guess that was "our bad."

Anyway, you folks know who I am and that I'm willing to study the Scriptures ... if you are. My conviction is the truth has nothing to hide.

Sorry for intruding. :(
We are not "afraid"of the truth. We are saying that our forum would be better off to be "free" of debate. We are not saying we are not up to debate either. I reassure you that our motives are not of trying to "avoid" this debate rather to be at the appropriately "place". Believe me there are many of us here they would not mind to take up this challenge.

God bless,
Philothei
 
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AJB4

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:swoon:

This'll be interesting. CoC VS Orthodoxy, just like two halves of my brain colliding together and exploding.

By all means, move this to the debate chambers. After I take my break (mentioned in another thread), I shall come back and see if this has come to anything.
mjeyds.gif


Sorry, I'm feeling a little weird at the moment.
 
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