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Those baskets of food scraps!

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by eider, Aug 5, 2017.

  1. eider

    eider Member

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    Hi....
    And so here is a second technique of fishing with long nets. Another member had suggested that Genessaret fishing was carried out (mainly) by caste or thrown nets, but the boats would have used gill or drag nets.

    Luke was not a fisherman, and his account is second hand. My point is that he mentioned 'launching into the deep...' Jewish Genessaret fishermen probably did not launch their nets into the deeps, but worked them where the bliny and shoal fish came into more shallow areas. The deeps harboured the great carnivore catfish which could smash up a net in minutes, and which could not be eaten by Jews, so it's hard to see why fishermen would do that.
     
  2. Catherineanne

    Catherineanne Well-Known Member

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    Nope. I don't think fresh food would be wasted in that way; that is very much a modern phenomenon.

    Who says the food was ever discarded or on the ground?
     
  3. Catherineanne

    Catherineanne Well-Known Member

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    Good grief.

    <<<<distinct sound of axes grinding>>>>
     
  4. eider

    eider Member

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    OK...... if you think that food handled and bitten by others was acceptable food, then what can I say?

    Maybe they placed the tidbits on tables? But it does look as if they picked up the pieces..?
    Mark {6:43} And they took up twelve baskets full of
    the fragments, and of the fishes.
     
  5. eider

    eider Member

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    Oh...... are you going to cut wood? You surely can't be thinking of using those for anything else?
    :help:
     
  6. -V-

    -V- Well-Known Member

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    "Strange" ≠ "forbidden"

    No, that just says the "swarming things" on the ground are unclean. Bread isn't a "swarming thing".

    But we're not talking about some random piece of food just sitting there for some unknown length of time. It's still fresh. And you've yet to shown any Mosaic law actually forbidding it.

    Yet we have no indication that they ever used bait like that.

    Read here about fishing back then:
    THE WIKI BIBLE PROJECT / Fishing in the Bible and the Ancient Near East
    Note in the "Methods of Fishing" section there's not a single mention of any baiting used with net fishing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  7. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Your use of logic to figure out how the fishing was done 2000yrs. ago is commendable, but it is nothing more than logic, laced with supposition.

    Then to say Luke was not a fisherman, really?

    Not being a fisherman don't you logically think, Luke was able to describe what he saw with his own two eyes?

    Your 2000yrs. removed, and your saying what they did was this or that, but you don't accept Luks account of the events, are you a fisherman in the Genessaret?

    The "launching into the deep" does not refer to how they threw their nets, it is in reference to the fact, they went out into deep water.

    To Launch means to push off from the dock, or land where the boat is tied or resting.
     
  8. eider

    eider Member

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    You must have a different bible than mine.
    Leviticus 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth [shall be] an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

    ......... but in any event, I get your point. Partially eaten or torn fish and bread, dropped to the ground, if picked up soon afterwards is perfectly safe to eat. No risk of illness or infection there. Got it! There's no possible chance that dirt from the ground would or could be an automaticly unclean 'sin leads to sickness' condition.
    Would you, or yours....?
    As already shown nobody would ever need to think twice about stopping down to pick up food dropped by another, and just eating it. Perfectly clean action. That's what must have happened, then. The disciples and even possibly Jesus might have had a meal of it, although this was not mentioned, why would it be?

    The idea of attracting a fish with a bait could well have been utterly strange to Genessaret fishermen.

    I couldn't open the link, but I get the point, the idea of attracting fish to one point for the purpose of netting them would never have been thought of.
     
  9. eider

    eider Member

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    Absolutely....... In fact we have lost quite a lot of detail imo about, say, free oyster dredging along the English East Coast in the 19th century, so I do get your point.

    I thought he was a doctor....... what do you think he might have been?

    Do you think that Luke travelled to Gennesaret and went out with the boatmen? He never said that he did.

    Absolutely not....... but Luke was a doctor, and not a Galilean doctor. I never intended to attack Luke's gospel, I rather think that you lead me here?
    I simply said that Luke was not an eye witness to events on Genessaret...... he did copy most of those reports from G-Mark, yes?

    Yes...... I never heard of a net being 'launched'.

    No it does not....... not in Luke's report. Let me show you that the boat was already afloat and offshore before it 'launched out' in Luke's report.
    I will underline the place where the boat was before it 'launched out', and if the translation is accurate this shows that Luke did not really know a lot about Gennesaret, boats or fishing, because both you and I know that to launch a boat you would probably send it afloat from the shore in some way.
    Luke 5:3 And he entered into one of the ships,

    which was Simon’s, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship. 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

    Interestingly, on the side of our conversation, Cephas's net was 'let down' and caught so many fish that two boats were needed to hold the catch, both nearly sinking, a condition well known where I live, only 40 years ago.
    This must surely help other members who suggested that Gennesaret fisherman just used throwing-casting nets! Gennesaret boats often used very very large nets!

    And so the question still stands..... I just wondered what the boatmen actually did with those twelve baskets of discarded fish and bread? There was never any catch to the question, but some replies cause me to believe that there may have been suspicion about my query?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  10. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    He was teaching a lesson. In the Didache, regarding The Thanksgiving/Eucharist it's written:

    "Now concerning the Thanksgiving (Eucharist), thus give thanks. First, concerning the cup: We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David Your servant, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. And concerning the broken bread: We thank You, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever."

    More info about the Didache -
    Didache - Wikipedia


    In regards to the bread being "blessed food" Jewish people don't pray for the food to be blessed (that I know of) as many Christians do; they say: Blessed are You, Lord our God, Ruler of the universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.

    More info about blessings -
    Blessings for Food & Drink | My Jewish Learning
     
  11. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid That figures! This isn't going to be easy! Supporter

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    Hi Eider,

    I hate to be a party pooper, but have you considered that the act of gathering the fragments of bread was not only as additional provisions that could be eaten, but also, and more importantly, as an empirical testimony to Jesus' disciples? I say this because Jesus later alludes back to the feeding of the 5,000 and then the 4,000 as an object lesson of faith for the disciples. (Matthew 16:5-12)

    There are also some additional implications in all of this, but I'll let you and the others 'fish' those out. ;)

    Peace,
    2PhiloVoid
     
  12. eider

    eider Member

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    Hi and thanks for your post.
    Thing is, Mark's gospel is the true record of a witness, isn't it? (Cephas)

    The trouble with what Matthew wrote is that he was not a witness, in fact he needed to copy 90% of his gospel from Mark, Quelle, one other etc....?

    Hmmmm.....
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    They didn't bless the food. ("making a blessing" is not all that it seems )
    i.e. there are serious language difficulties here, in America...

    Here's a short excerpt I just looked up. (I learned this decades ago)

    Posted on January 31, 2012


    As Western thinking Christians today, it is a common practice for us when praying before a meal to say, “Lord bless this food to the nourishment of our bodies and our bodies to your service.” Where did this practice of blessing the food before the meal come from and can we find a biblical base for doing it? Some research into the history of this subject provided some interesting answers.

    [​IMG]First of all, in the Hebrew Scriptures that Jesus would have grown up on, there is not a single instance in which there is a command to bless the food before a meal. The only passage that would come close to indicating this would be Deuteronomy 8:10, “When you have eaten and are satisfied, bless (praise) the Lord your God for the good land He has given you.” In this verse however, it says to bless, “after the meal” and not before the meal. Also, this verse says to direct the blessing towards God and not the meal itself. Marvin Wilson says, “Unlike the practice of most Western Christians today, in Bible times, the Hebrew people did not see the need to bless food, drink, or other material things. In prayer, they focused only on blessing God, the Creator and Giver.” Why was this the case? Wilson continues, “The ancient Hebrews would have never thought of blessing what they ate. The idea would have been totally foreign to them; it would have been an insult of sorts, to God!
     
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  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    another excerpt just read: copy/past from online search:
    "You could point out that there are several examples in the new Testament of Jesus giving a blessing at meal time. For example, in Matthew 14:19 it says, “He gave thanks and broke the loaves.” Also, in Matthew 26:26 it says, “While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it.” Almost every Bible scholar agrees that the “thanks” or “blessing” that Jesus would have given at these meals would have been the b’rakhah (blessing, benediction) that Jews have said for over two thousand years before meals. Jesus would have said, “Barukh attah, Adonai Eloheynu, melekh-ha’olam, haMotzi lecheem, minha’aretz”, or in English, “Blessed are you O lord, our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.” In this age-old prayer that Jesus would have recited, again God is the one being blessed and not the food."
     
  15. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid That figures! This isn't going to be easy! Supporter

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    What are you talking about? Mark cites the same thing in Mark chapter 8. So, whether you use Mark or Matthew, my point stands, eider. :cool:
     
  16. eider

    eider Member

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    I'm talking about the fact that Matthew did not witness this event, but copied the report, rather badly, with ommissions and additions to suit.

    But now that you have quoted Mark, that's great:-
    The scraps were real. So were the baskets. Modern day netters use trays and baskets to keep tri-nets, gill-nets, etc in because they can be moved around and stored without tangling.

    But to 'hand' several nets into a single pile is safe as long as you don't try to move it anywhere. So the presence of so many baskets makes good sense because these had a variety of uses.

    Now, how do you perceive that those scraps, collected in those baskets, would not have been scattered as bait?

    In Mark 8 surely Jesus is saying, quite simply, not to trust the priesthood nor Antipas (their leaven is like poison?) , but to believe their own eyes and have faith in him?

    Mark
    {8:14}. Now [the disciples] had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf {8:15} And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod. {8:16} And they reasoned among themselves, saying, [It is] because we have no bread. {8:17} And when Jesus knew [it,] he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? {8:18} Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? {8:19} When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. {8:20} And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. {8:21} And he said unto them, How

    is it that ye do not understand?
     
  17. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid That figures! This isn't going to be easy! Supporter

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    Well, the unfortunate thing for your theory is that the language structure and nuances of the narratives don't really 'allow' for your interpretation. Your's would have to be seen as a more liberal, Post Hoc raltionalization of the accounts.
     
  18. eider

    eider Member

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    What language structure are you refering to, Greek, Western Aramaic, or Eastern Aramaic?

    And whose rationalisation of the accounts is to be considered as correct? For instance, what is your theory?

    If the translated NT is unreliable, then 'fair enough', but if events occured as reported, then surely, my theory is as strong as any others?
     
  19. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    God provides, physically, yes

    But the physical provision was so that the multiltude could have opportunity to be nourished spiritually.

    This is why we must give top priority to feeding on spiritual food from God's Word.
     
  20. eider

    eider Member

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    Do you believe in spirits?
     
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