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Thomas: "My Lord and My God"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Sep 14, 2002.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Friends,

    Trinitarians believe that Thomas' famous statement, "My Lord and my God,"  was addressed SOLELY to Jesus. However, there is no Biblical record to prove that this is the case. This is only in their imagination.

    Thus, when confronted with the TRUTH that Jesus is a MAN, they ask: If Jesus were NOT God, why did he NOT correct Thomas?

    I used to think that Thomas MISTAKENLY thought that Jesus is God. But on further study, Thomas was NOT mistaken at all because he did NOT call Jesus his God.

    Before Thomas met Jesus after the resurrection, he was already told that he has risen. He already knew that he is flesh and bones because Jesus had already told the eleven (Luke 24:39).

    However, he did NOT believe that Jesus has risen until he sees and touches him.

    Thus, when he met Jesus and touched him, he BELIEVED not only Jesus but he also BELIEVED the one who SENT him (John 14:1). This is evidenced by his saying "my Lord" to Jesus and "my God" to the Father who SENT Jesus.

    What makes me certain that this is the case? Thomas was a Jew who was taught from childhood that God is called "Lord God" Almighty. There is NO verse in the Old Testament which shows that God was ever addressed "my Lord and my God." God had ALWAYS been addressed "Lord God" becuse God was the ONE and ONLY Lord in the Old Testament.

    On the other hand, Thomas was aware that for THEM, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father and ONLY ONE Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).

    Hence, Thomas' statement was adressed to BOTH Jesus (my Lord) and to the Father (my God). Thomas was correct and Jesus did NOT have any reason to rebuke nor reprimand him for that.

    Ed
     
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  2. \o/

    \o/ Member

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    Ed, you are stetching it here.

    Jesus is not the "only true God" but He is divine (being the pre-existent, only begotten Son of God - what other nature could He have?) and called "God" here by Thomas. Jesus is also called "God" by the "only true God" in Hebrews 1.
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    \o/

    If ThomasTHOUGHT that Jesus is God, he would have said "my Lord God" which was what Jews of his time were TAUGHT since their early childhood.

    You say that Jesus is called "God" by the "only true God" in Hebrews 1. Can't you see how your belief makes Jesus a FALSE God? Can there be MORE than one "only true God?"

    Ed
     
  4. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
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    Actually the context states otherwise:

    John20:28 "And Thomas answered and SAID TO HIM"My Lord and my God!"

    Pretty clear who is being addressed.
    Seeing otherwise is actually reading into the text ;).

    This is an unfounded assertion. Read:

    Psalm35:23 "Stir up Yourself, and awake to my vindication, to my cause, my God AND my Lord."

    In addition to all this, it is interesting to note that the Father Himself refers to Jesus with a quote from the OT in which He refers to Christ as YHWH..cf..Heb1:10-12. Not only does this make Jesus God, but YHWH as well.

    also:

    Zech14:3-4..cf..Acts1:11-12 ..whose feet?..cf..Jn1:1

    God bless- FM
     
  5. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    As with all heresies and false teachings, when the Bible doesn't agree with your doctrine, then reinterpret the Bible.

    If Thomas had been exclaiming, then both "Theos" and "Kurios" would have been written without the definite article "O". As it is Thomas said "The lord of me and the God of me."


    John 20:28 kai apekriqh o qwmasV kai eipen autw o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou

    A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament

    My Lord and my God (o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the _Koiné_. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.
     
  6. \o/

    \o/ Member

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    The true God and the true tabernacle.

    JOH 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    HEB 8:1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man... 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle.

    The "true tabernacle" does not disallow the tabernacle in the wilderness being a tabernacle, although it is not the original.

    Same applies to Father and Son. The Son is divine, but He is not the Ancient of Days (Daniel 7).
     
  7. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Hello and God bless, :)



    You seem to think that the word "only" here excludes Jesus from the Godhead.

    Actually, no more does this exclude Jesus from being "God" (..cf..Jn1:1; 20:28; etc..) than does YHWH being the "ONLY Savior" exclude the Son..cf..Isaiah43:10-11..Note also the passage in that it states that 'no god was formed before or after YHWH"..

    See also here for a good link on the topic. See also here for additional commentary.

    I see it as the representative of the Godhead coming to earth to proclaim the only genuine God. Just like a representitive of the US is an American himself. :pray:

    ..continuing from the above...

    Read: Jn1:9 "That was the True Light which gives light to every man coming into the world."..cf..Rev3:7 :idea:

    Does this exclude the Father from being the "True Light"? How can you be the "True Light" and not be the "True God"? :confused:

    As for the tabernacle:

    Heb3:3 "For this One [Jesus] has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch [note parallel] as He who built the house has more honor than the house. For evey house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant,....but Christ as a Son over His own house , whose house we are..." ;)

    You may want to see Is44:6..cf..Rev1:7 and learn what "first and the last" and "alpha and Omega" means also..cf....Jn17:5..cf..Prov8:22..cf..Col2:3..cf..Jer10:12..cf..1Cor1:24;30..cf..Mic5:2..cf..Prov8:23

    Also, Christ as "high priests" does not exclude him from seemingly contradictory roles as He is:
    • The Sacrifice AND the High Priest-
    • The Lamb AND the Great Shepherd-
    • A King AND a servant-
    • The Son of God AND the Son of Man

    On a side note, you may want to read carefully James5:4-9..cf..Rev3:20. Note that the context speaks consistently of the Lord of Sabaoth..i.e..Almighty God, and that this title is applies to Jesus Christ.

    God bless- FM
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Originally posted by Future Man
    Sure, Thomas SAID to Jesus, "my Lord and my God" but it does NOT mean that "my God" referred to Jesus. It's like saying to you, "my God" yet it does not mean I'm calling you my God.

    At any rate, granting without admitting that Thomas indeed referred to Jesus as his God, what makes you THINK Thomas was correct in calling Jesus his God? 

    Where did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Did God talk to him and told him that Jesus is God? Did Jesus TEACH his apostles that he is God? Why would you BELIEVE Thomas when you can't be sure if Thomas' source is reliable or not?

    Please note that Jesus SAID that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). God did NOT talk to Thomas because Thomas was NOT a prophet NOR the Son of God referred to in Heb. 1:1-2.

    So, where did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God?


    Okay, so I was wrong.  Still, this des NOT make Thomas correct in addressing Jesus "my God."

    The writer of Hebrews 1:10-12 did NOT talk to God either. What he wrote about God's statements regarding the Son was lifted from the Old Testament. Hebrews 1:10-12 ws lifted from Psalm 102:25-27 which is a DOXOLOGY addressed to God.

    Ed
     
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Old Shepherd,

    Granted that your Greek is accurate, let me ask you, from WHOM did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Can you show me the verse?

    Ed
     
  10. excreationist

    excreationist Former Believer

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    Perhaps a better example is this:

    Mark 10:17-18 (and Luke 18:18-19)
    As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good - except God alone.

    This suggests that Jesus was not God at that point in time.
     
  11. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Future Man
    Regarding John 1:1; John 20:28, from whom did apostles John and Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Are you suggesting that Jesus (the SON) LIED when he said that the FATHER is the ONLY true God when he meant all along that he is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the FATHER?

    While it is true that the Old Testament teaches that God is the ONLY savior, the Bible also teaches that God EXALTED Jesus to be Prince and SAVIOR...(Acts 5:31).

     Isaiah 43:10 PROVES that Jesus is NOT God. Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God and the firstborn over all creation (Col. 1:15).


     

    So, who is the "ONLY genuine God" my frien, Jesus or the Father?

    The verse does NOT say that Jesus is the ONLY "true light". Thus, the true God who is the Father is also the "true light."

    Ed
     
  12. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Not! Jesus did not add, "so don't call me good." as all agnostics and atheists want to interpret. Since only God is good, Jesus is God. An "exbeliever" is a contradiction. It's like saying I'm an experson. You either are or you are not, you evidently were not.
     
  13. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    The apostles and Thomas learned who Jesus was the same way Peter did. God revealed it to them. Where is the verse where God reveals Jesus identity, to Peter? Jesus announces it was from God, after Peter's confession. You have a bad habit of throwing out and ignoring the verses which don't agree with your Manalo doctrine.

    Matt 16:6 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


    Are you suggesting that Jesus (the SON) LIED when he said that the FATHER is the ONLY true God when he meant all along that he is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the FATHER?
    John 17:3, is not the only verse in the Bible.

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
     
  14. excreationist

    excreationist Former Believer

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    I didn't say that Jesus did.

    Now that I think of it, that verse doesn't technically say that Jesus isn't God... it does involve Jesus expressing surprise that someone suggests he is god-like (good).

    By "believer" I mean with respect to the Christian faith. Haven't you heard Christians saying "they're a believer" or "they're not a believer"? They're talking about whether those people are Christians or not.
     
  15. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Hello and God bless,
    So therefore you assume that it was merely an exclamartory remark. What makes you think a 1st century Jew would be so careless? Taking the name of God in vain is the unpardonable sin of the OT. Which brings us to....

    Because the Greek literally translates as- "The Lord OF me THE God OF me"...Thomas is claiming Christ as the 'God over him'. This is idolatry. :bow: :priest:

    Addionally, you must take into account that Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for this. :mad: This would be the FIRST thing the very Son of God would do BEFORE giving him any 'praise'.

    I believe OS gave a suffcient answer to your question. Aside from the fact that Thomas walked, ate, slept, and missioned with the man for over three years. See also Jn1:1.

    Of course I believe Jesus was a man. The Word was made ['ginomai'] flesh (i.e. "man"). However, I also believe Him to be God as well.
    As for prophet: Note that Peter was not a "prophet" either, yet recieved the revelation of Christ that all recieve.

    So according to your line of reasoning, the NT is wholly uninspired. :scratch: Just as a side note, I believe the author was Paul.

    Precisely! An OT scripture addressed to the Father [YHWH] is directly applied to the Son. Note the introduction to every paragraph:

    vs8 "But unto the Son He [YHWH] sayeth...."

    It is the Father [YHWH] who is addressing the Son. ;)

    ..........
     
  16. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    ....


    How can you 'cease' to be God at one time? However, OS made a good point. It would contradict scripture to say that Jesus was not "good". Hence:
    Heb1:3 "Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person."

    You ask as if the Apostles who authored the NT were just "giving it their good guess". The scriptures are INSPIRED and WITHOUT CONTRADICTION. Are you telling me that John LIED when He referred to Jesus as 'God'? :confused:

    But more specifically Savior to- "....the ends of the earth" Is45:21-22. Now when was 'salvation' "to the ends of the earth" available? In the NT times after the crucifixion. Note that ONLY Savior would STILL exclude Jesus by your reasoning, even had He been exalted as savior at a later time.
    On exaltation, note: Jn17:5 "...glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began." Note that Jesus is asking for the glory he HAD BACK. The 'exaltation' you read of was already his, prior to the events of Phil2:6.

    Actually Is43:10 proves quite the opposite. It excludes Him as a 'secondary god'. Perfect grounds for a Trinity.

    However, on "first-born", read:
    Psalms89:26-30 "I will also appoint Him my first-born...." Note that David was actually born LAST in His family. Also note the heavy Messianic overtones..cf..Col1:15. Why would God APPOINT the Son as "first-born" if He already was?

    You can see the same in Genesis22:2 where Issac is referred to as the "ONLY" son of Abraham by God, despite the fact that Ishmael was born first and was still alive at the time.

    Both.

    This was cited as a response to the "true tabernacle" bit. It doesn't say 'only' either...

    _____________________________
    May God bless you in the highest- FM
     
  17. g_1933

    g_1933 New Member

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    In John 10:30 Jesus proclaims "I and my Father are one." The Jews were then going to stone him for what they thought was blasphemy. The Father He was refering to was God. Jesus clearly states that He is God.
     
  18. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

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    Think of an alternative.  What if Jesus was trying to make the point that He is God to the guy asking the question.  He called Jesus good tacher.  Jesus said basically I am not good unless i am God.  So then the man had to make etiher a statement of belief that He is God or say the He was not good.  See I think Jesus was trying to show to the man that He was and is God in these verses. 
     
  19. cthoma11

    cthoma11 Up in Canada

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    Hi,

    I don't  think it involves Jesus expressing surprise. Jesus typically used what people said as a way of teaching them a truth. This situation is no different. Thus to read surprise into this text is not warranted.

    Thus Jesus was telling the man that by calling him (Jesus) good, the man was in fact, attributing the status of God upon Jesus. If Jesus was not God, Jesus would have been wrong not to have said that he (Jesus) was in fact not God as Jesus would have otherwise been accepting worship meant for God. Remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, he told Satan very clearly who the only object of worship should be.

    Regards,

    Clinton
     
  20. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

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    That's kind of stretching the imagination. That verse does seem like Jesus is expressing surpirse.

    Jesus is implying he is neither good nor God.
     
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