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Thomas: "My Lord and My God"

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Sep 14, 2002.

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  1. excreationist

    excreationist Former Believer

    234
    +0
    Agnostic
    Single
    About the public's opinions about the goodness of Jesus:

    from the Christian research group, Barna Research Online:
     
  2. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by OldShepherd
    I wrote:
    You wrote:
     What the Father revealed to apostle Peter regarding Jesus is that Jesus is the SON of the living God - NOT "God the Son."Thus, it is NOT true that apostle Peter LEARNED from God that Jesus is God. Now, where did Thomas LEARN that Jesus is God? Please  show me the verse.

    BTW, did apostles Peter and Thomas talk DIRECTLY to God? Where is your PROOF that they did?


    I wrote:
    You wrote:
    So you are saying that John 17:3 must be REJECTED because it is NOT the only verse in the Bible. Right?

    You wrote:
    The SON of God CAME. The SON of God GAVE us an  understanding. SO THAT we may know HIM who is true, and we are in HIM who is true, even in HIS son Jesus Christ.

    Now, if Jesus were HIM who is true,who is HIS son, Jesus Christ?

    Ed
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    </B>

    &nbsp;Old Shepherd wrote:
    Old Shepherd,

    Why do you INSIST what you like to believe? Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus also said that the Father alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Therefore, Jesus is telling the man NOT to call him GOOD because&nbsp;he is a MAN - NOT God.

    Ed
     
  4. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    Hello and God bless,

    Actually, I believe that "Son of God" in itself denotes 'deity'. One has to look no further than-

    John5:18 "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, becuase he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making himself equal with God."

    Note that this is an interjection from John the narrator, NOT a quote of the Jews. :idea:

    ..cf..

    Mark14:62 “I am”, said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?’ he asked. ‘You have heard the blasphemy” :mad:

    The very fact that the Holy scriptures are inspired. This is what "inspired" means? Once again, Jn1:1. Or better yet <bait for argument> Jn8:58. :wave:
    You have to take into account what I said earlier with Heb1:2. Also note John14:7-9. How could this be accomplished without being "good"... :holy:

    _______________

    God bless you--FM
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Future Man

    I wrote:
    You wrote:
    Your belief that "Son of God" denotes 'DEITY' is FALSE. Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

    John 5:18 does NOT prove that Jesus is God. Apostle John is only NARRATING what the Jews did to Jesus and WHY. According to John, the Jews wanted all the more to kill Jesus BECAUSE he not only broke the Sabbath but also CALLED God his Father.

    To the Jews, calling God his Father&nbsp; or saying he is the SON of God is BLASPHEMY - meaning, being a MAN, he makes himself EQUAL to God (John 5:18; 10:33, 36).

    This is supported by Mark. 14:63-64 which shows the High Priest (one of the Jews who wanted to kill Jesus) tearing his clothes and saying, "you have heard the BLASPHEMY" when Jesus answered "I AM" when asked if he is "the Christ, the SON of the blessed" (Mark 14:61). And they CONDEMNED him worthy of DEATH (Mark 14:64).

    Apostle John would NOT accuse Jesus of BLASPHEMY for saying that he is the Son of God, would he?


    I wrote:
    You wrote:


    While it is true that the Holy Scriptures is inspired by God, it does NOT mean that God talked to Thomas and Peter.&nbsp;You also have to THINK and evaluate wht the Scriptures say. Hebrews 1:1-2 tells us that in the past, God&nbsp;SPOKE to our fathers&nbsp;by the prophets and in these last days, SPOKE to US by His Son.

    And in Luke 10:22 Jesus said: "All things have ben delivered to me by my Father and NO ONE knows WHO the Son is but the Father and NO ONE knows WHO&nbsp; the Father is but the Son AND the one to whom the Son WILLSto reveal him."

    Thus, the Father REVEALED to apostle Peter WHO the Son is THROUGH Jesus himself. In Luke 10:16, Jesus said: "He who hears you hears me, he who refects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects Him who sent me." Anyone who&nbsp;HEARS Jesus also HEARS the Father who sent him.



    I wrote:

    You wrote:
    Heb. 1:3 says Jesus is the express IMAGE of God. An IMAGE as you should know, is NOT the REAL thing. Apostle Paul also wrote in Col. 1:15 that Jesus is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God. This PROVES that Jesus is a MAN because God says in Gen. 1:26: "Let us make MAN in our IMAGE.

    E
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by g_1933
    g_1933,

    Look at the context within which Jesus said "I and th

    e Father are one." Jesus was talking about caring&nbsp; for the sheep. He was not talking about being God.

    If you&nbsp;go further down to John 10:33, you will read that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they THOUGHT Jesus blasphemed - meaning, being a MAN, he was making himself God.

    Now go on to John 10:36 and you will learn why the Jews THOUGHT Jesus was making himself God. The Jews heard Jesus say that he is the Son of God.

    Did Jesus REALLY make himself God? No!

    When Jesus said "I and the Father are one," he was NOT saying that he and the Father are one...God. The word "God" is an ADDITION to the word of God. It's putting words in Jeus' mouth. That's a VIOLATION of God's command NOT to ADD to nor subtract from His word (Deut. 12:32).

    Ed
     
  7. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by excreationist
    [quotePerhaps a better example is this:

    Mark 10:17-18 (and Luke 18:18-19)
    As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good - except God alone.

    This suggests that Jesus was not God at that point in time. [[/QUOTE]

    Excreationist,

    This verse taken with John 8:40 where Jesus says he is a MAN and John 17:3 where Jesus tells the Father that He is the ONLY true God, you are right!

    Jesus was NEVER God at any point of time.&nbsp;

    Apostle Paul explains what is "good." In Romans 7:12, apostle Paul writes: "Wherefore the LAW is holy, and the COMMANDMENT holy, and just, and GOOD."

    Thus, Jesus was simply telling the man that only God is the LAW.&nbsp;That in order to inherit eternal life, he must&nbsp;OBEY the commandments of God.

    Of course,&nbsp;ONLY his disciples UNDERSTOOD what he meant because to them it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are OUTSIDE, all things come in parables (Mark 4:11).

    Ed
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    &nbsp;

    Read Hebrews 1:1-2 again and please try to understand. God SPOKE to us in these last days THROUGH to His SON, Jesus. Thus, everything the apostles learned from Jesus is from God. But God did NOT talk to the apostles DIRECTLY to tell them that Jesus is God.

    By saying this,&nbsp;you REJECT John 17:3!

    My, my, look how poorly you understand the word of God! "his Son Jesus Christ" is part of the sentence "that we may know HIM who is true, that we are in HIM who is true, EVEN in HIS Son Jesus Christ."

    "This (HIM who is true) is the true God and eternal life" (cf. John 17:3).

    Ed
     
  9. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Ed... you still have not answered these things

    Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

    you are the one that refered to 'thing'

    Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

    The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

    Did God not make the covenant???

    The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


    well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

    ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

    No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

    Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

    When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

    Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

    I believe
     
  10. Jesusong

    Jesusong Veteran

    +91
    Pentecostal
    Married
    We'll start in Mark 2:1-12
    &nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    In verse 5 Jesus tells the man that his sins are forgiven.

    In verse 7 the teachers of the law challenges Jesus' right to forgive sins, stating that only God can do this.

    Verses 8-11 Jesus states and demonstrates that he has the authority to forgive sins by healing the man. which is something that only God can do.

    &nbsp;

    Next, in John 8:12-58; Jesus has a long dissertation with the Pharisees about his mission, role, and his authority. ( I won't paste the whole account due to it's size ) . But I want to bring your attention down to verse 58;&nbsp;
    Here we see Jesus taking the divine name from Exodus 3:14 and applying it to himself. The reaction of the pharisees is by stoning Jesus for blasphemy.

    Now we go to John 10:25-33;

    In this section we see Jesus claiming that his Father ( who is God ) and himself are one and the same. Which once again the Jews begin to sone Jesus for blasphemy. But what's important here is that the statement of the Jews is very clear. They understood very well that Jesus was claiming to be God.

    It was from these incidents that Thomas learned that Jesus is God, which he himself declared when he saw the risen Lord with the words "My Lord and my God!"
     
  11. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +0


    Jesus got this authority from God. He doesn't make the claim of being God. As per v.10, Jesus says the son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins. The source of that authority is found in other verses.


    This is a matter of interpretation. It could easily mean God has ordained the messiah since before Abraham.


    It's funny that you stop at verse 33. Keep going from verse 34 and you'll find Jesus denies being God.

    v. 34, 35 Jesus says it is written in the law, "Ye are gods" onto whom the word of God came.
    In 36-37 he takes on another objection of the Jews to his claim of being the son of God (the Jews took this to be a blashphemy as well). Jesus goes on to say that he does the works of the Father. The Father is indwelling, but he has a further relationship with God, since he is the ordained.

    These are not claimes of the Godhead by Jesus. At every turn when Jesus is accused of claiming to be God, he denies it and explains he does the works of the Father in him, that he does nothing on his own except the will of the Father.
     
  12. Jesusong

    Jesusong Veteran

    +91
    Pentecostal
    Married
    &nbsp;

    Concerning Mark 2:1-12

    The claim that he has authority to forgive sins is a claim of deity in itself. The teachers of the law knew that, which is why they made the challenge. The only one who has authority to forgive sins is God. Cause only God knows the heart of an individual, and whether or not there is sin that needs to be forgiven. And that is exactly what Jesus did.

    &nbsp;

    Concerning John 8:58

    If this is only a matter of interpretation then the Jews wouldn't have picked up any stones to stone Jesus with. But what Jesus did do was to apply the Name in Exodus 3:14 to himself, which in the mind set of OT law, was blasphemy.

    &nbsp;

    Concerning John 10:33-37

    Jesus is further strengthening his argument by quoting Psalms 82:6, by saying that if God considered the judges of old to be gods, then why do they accuse Jesus of blasphemy, unless they understand more fully what he was claiming for himself. You have to remember that Jesus was dealing with adversaries that were experts of the OT law and how its used. Jesus' adversaries knew full well what Jesus was saying about himself and how he was applying what he was saying to himself. Thus the challenge of the teachers of the law solidifies Jesus' claim to deity.



    &nbsp;
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    You are FALSELY accusing Jesus of&nbsp;CLAIMING Deity when he said that he had "authority" ON EARTH to forgive sins.&nbsp;

    If&nbsp;Jesus were claiming Deity, he would NOT have mentioned that he had "authority". He would have simply said, "I can forgive sins." By mentioning that he had "authority", he was ACKNOWLEDGING that someone HIGHER than he had GIVEN him the "authority" to forgive sins ON EARTH.

    Jesus SAID that all "authority" was GIVEN to him in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18).&nbsp; In Acts 5:31, we LEARN that it was God who GAVE Jesus the "authority" to&nbsp; FORGIVE sins.

    The context of John 8:58 CLARIFIES why the Jews tried to stone him. In verse 56, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to SEE "my day." The Jews THOUGHT he was talking about "the day he was born" so in verse 57, the Jews&nbsp;asked him how that could have been since&nbsp;he was not yet 50. And&nbsp;when&nbsp;the Jews heard him say "Most ASSUREDLY, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM," they&nbsp;THOUGHT that he was&nbsp;MOCKING them about his age so they tried to stone him.

    They did NOT understand what Jesus meant when he said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced&nbsp;to SEE my day. He SAW it and was glad."&nbsp;Jesus was&nbsp;talking about "the day of the Lord" or JUDGMENT day (2 Petr 3:10) when God's promises to Abraham and his SEED (Gen. 17:7; Gal. 3:16) concerning the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) will be FULFILLED.

    Jesus was telling the Jews that BEFORE Abraham was, he IS&nbsp;the ANOINTED seed of Abraham and SAVIOR. Apostle Peter wrote that Jesus was FOREORDAINED before the foundations of&nbsp;the world (1 Peter 1:20).

    The Jews did NOT stone Jesus for saying that he and the Father are ONE (John 10:33). The Jews understood this to mean that Jesus and the Father are ONE in caring for the sheep.

    The Jews KNEW that Jesus was a MAN. Blasphemy is a CRIME committed by a MAN who claims he is God or makes himself equal to God. Jesus did NOT do any of these.

    John 10:36 tells us that the Jews accused him of BLASPHEMY because he said "he is the Son of God" (see also John 5:18). The Jews KNEW that Jesus was NOT claiming to be God but because they wanted to kill him very BADLY, they were looking for ways to LEGALIZE his killing.

    Ed
     
  14. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Married
  15. Jesusong

    Jesusong Veteran

    +91
    Pentecostal
    Married
    gunnysgt,

    thanks for the link&nbsp;&amp; info. Very informative &amp; enlightening.

    &nbsp;

    Kain,

    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Are you a member of Iglesia ni Cristo?
     
  16. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

    +85
    Christian
    Married
    Praise be to God, fellow brother in Christ.


    PS 119:40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

    PS 119:41 Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

    PS 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

    PS 119:43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

    PS 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

    PS 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

    PS 119:46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
     
  17. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Posted by edpobre: "If Jesus were claiming Deity, he would NOT have mentioned that he had "authority". He would have simply said, "I can forgive sins." By mentioning that he had "authority", he was ACKNOWLEDGING that someone HIGHER than he had GIVEN him the "authority" to forgive sins ON EARTH."

    Did He claim deity when He says that He is the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last... the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS!!! When God says that He is the LORD and that He will not give His glory to another He is not lying... and when Christ says that He is the LORD OF LORDS He IS!!!

    God became a man ed... He made HIMSELF nothing... Taking the nature of a servant... being made in human likeness. God did not change who He was at all.. rather He (Being in very nature Himself) took the nature of a man! He did this to become our sin ed. Believe Him. You cannot refute the below responce that has been posted countless times now. It is truth, and you know it. If you didn't, then I assume you would have responded to it by now. That... you have not done (nor anyone else)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Posted by ed: I know what is in the Bible fow. But that is not my question. I said you are NOT being RATIONAL because you said that this "thing" who is at the the side of the Father is "one and the SAME thing as the Father." BTW, what is this you cal "thing" fow?

    you are the one that refered to 'thing'

    Posted by ed: "Then show me the verse which says that the Father BECAME the SON."

    The Bible says: (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    The Bible says: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    The Bible says: (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    The Bible says: (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

    Did God not make the covenant???

    The Bible says: (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Remeber God says that I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. (Isaiah 42:8)


    well ed.... Christ says that HE is the Alapha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... the First and the Last..... as does the Father. I ask you ed... are they not claiming the saim thing??? if two things come in first in a race... are they not of equal speed??? simple

    ed's reply: If that's how you think, do you admit then that you believe there are two "Gods" whom you pass off as "things?"

    No ed... that's not how I think.. They both say it ed... God says that there are no others... therefore they are one... they are both the Alpha and the Omega... the Beginning and the End... ther FIRST AND THE LAST!!!

    Why did God create the earth ed??? It was because He desired a love relationship with a creation... Love ed... "Through Him all things were made that have been made" (John 1)... God is Love (1st John 4:8)... and through His love, He came to us. (also John 1) There are not two separate 'things' as you say ed... there is one Living God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He is undescribable... and says that He IS.

    When God made Himself a man... it was His love.... Jesus Christ... and He subjected himself to endure mans punishment, and subservience. This was His sacrifice, that He became our sins... God the Father can not be in the presence of sin, much less become it. Therefore, out of His uncomprehendible love... He made Himself nothing. He came to us and His name is Jesus Christ-Emmanuel-God with us: Yes... God can do that, even becoming something on earth, while at the same time being God the Father in Heaven. Yes... God can do any number of "evens" that one could fathom asking.

    Christ, who being in very nature God, who made Himself nothing, became subject to God the Father... and at the end when all things were finished, was taken again into glory and given the title KING OF KINGS AND LORD OR LORDS... ALL CAPS ED. This is the title reserved for the LORD HIMSELF... WHO WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER... IT IS THE TITLE OF MY LORD CHRIST WHO IS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE HAVING DEFEATED DEATH... AND THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES RESIDE IN HIS HANDS! And after it is all over... Christ will subject Himself to the Father thus the Father becomes all in all. Christ is God... who made>HIMSELF<a man... and who was then again glorified by Him from whom He came

    I believe
     
  18. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

    +7
    Christian
    Tell me ed... when one believes and is saved by God... whose Spirit goes to abide within him???

    1 Cor. 2:10-14: But God has revealed it to us by His Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cnnnot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Galatians 3:5-- Does God give you his Spirit...

    Galatians 4:6-- Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts....

    and ed... who is the Lord of glory (remembering that God will not give His glory to another!)

    1 Cor. 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Who made the covenant ed???

    The Bible says this was necessary: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    The Bible says: (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the cse of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.

    Did God not make the covenant???

    God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God!

    believe ed
     
  19. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

    175
    +0


    When dealing with cults, you would do well to remember that Christianity itself began as a cult. A charismatic leader, Christ who brought forth very unorthodox views to Judaism and suggested people give up all their earthly possessions and follow him to be saved.


    I have made an oath of secrecy concerning my faith, such that only the Eternal may undo. I will answer neither possitively nor negatively on any questions concerning the faith I belong to.

    Concerning Christianity, I'm examining the trinity/unity issue subjectively in order to rectify some apparant contradictions. I've taken a non divine view of Christ for this excercise. Both sides have made some very good points. This has resulted in some points that the trinity can't answer and some that the unity can't answer.

    So I'll be taking the sideline for a while until more information becomes available, the insults fade and the temperature cools. I've violated some strictures of my faith which requires atonement.
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    "This has resulted in some points that the trinity can't answer. . ." False! You haven't posted a single point or question which Trinitarians have not been able to answer. Disagreeing with your presumptions and presuppositions is not the same as not being able to answer.

    ""I've taken a non divine view of Christ for this excercise." Translate this as "came here with a bunch of presuppositions and assumptions, which have never been supported.

    On the side lines is exactly where you belong. Come back when you have dumped the superior attitude.
     
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