This Topic Was Brought To My Attention By....

[cvanwey]

1. I don’t know.

2. Yes, free will exists.

2a. Repent and believe the gospel. You, too, can cross that threshold.

Thanks?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is imposed upon daily to many. You are incorrect. Just like other religions are to many.

A lot is "imposed" on people. So what ? That's life on earth in a pernicious (death dealing) world/society. Thus most are drawn to death/ perishing in destruction.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No, He instead offers an ultimatum or a threat, in His Word. 'My way or the highway.'

No.

Everyone starts out DEAD. In trespasses ad sin, without hope.....

Yahuweh brings the only hope anyone has, ever.

He lets you choose for yourself.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's no different than a traffic law. Yes, you can choose to run the red light, but if you get caught, can you choose whether or not you get a ticket? In God's case, He sees all. His rules are followed, or you get punished. This is not freewill:

With a traffic ticket, the judge may appoint a counselor (laywer (sic) ) , who may work with the judge
so you don't have to do anything at all for the ticket. It could even 'disappear'.

Someone might take the 'punishment' of the ticket in your place. The judge says "dismissed"/ the ticket may be thrown out.

Everyone is already dead. That is worse than being disciplined, punished, chastised or scourged.

Every child of God is scourged. If a man is not scourged, he is not a child of God. God is a perfect Father.

 

[drich0150]

@Eight Foot Manchild

He stated, and I quote.....

'No one goes to heaven.'

Paraphrased thereafter,

paraphrased from what?

he made the brilliant point that no one sins in heaven.

Indeed.

Hence, you are completely transformed anew, upon ascending into heaven.

According to Paul in Rmans Once you turn from your sin under Christ you become a new person who is still a slave/bound to the old body that is owned and controlled by sin.

You are no longer you.

You where never you. you are a amaligamation of body soul spirit. The body is a slave to sin. the spirit is the physical control and intellect for the body so when the body dies so too does the spirit. The soul is the eternal element.

The soul is what decides to turn from the sin controlling the body and spirit. This soul is what is saved. Sin owns the body and spirit and as such the wage of that sin is death.

Upon resurrection the soul is revived and placed in a new mansion/house who body and spirit is not corrupt. The soul has ultimate control of the new body and Spirit as the soul is a servant of God and chooses to hate and keep sin apart from this this new man.

Which begs such starting question(s); maybe there might be more there-after, who knows...? :0

If sin is not applicable in heaven, because once you cross the threshold, you will no longer sin, why doesn't everyone go to heaven?

Again upon resurrection the soul will have access to a new uncorrupted body and spirit. if in this life the soul does not cast off and learn to hate sin it will embrace sin again in the next life. The soul upon the death and resurrection has a chance to cast off sin forever if in this life we repent and seek atonement. If not that same soul will carry sin over into the next life which is why not everyone goes to heaven.

All people will sin, right up until the point of 'transformation'.

if the soul embraces sin and never repents of it then it can sin after transformation.

And secondly, for now anyways, how does one enjoy heaven, knowing some of their close loved ones are on the opposite side for eternity?

well 1) the bible never says we (souls will burn forever.) if you read it specifically the bible says hell is forever the worm of torment is forever and satan and his inner circle will burn forever. When ever the bible of Jesus speaks of Hell and out souls it is always the point of second death. in that hell destroys souls.

2) not everyone wants to be a slave to God in Heaven. My dad for instance could never serve God happily forever in Heaven. he would make Heaven hell for a great number of us. So for him Hell may be the better option. I do not want to see him tormented by serving in heaven or by the flames of Hell. At least according to the written word Hell is not forever.

And third, does freewill 'really' exist in the afterlife?

There is no freewill period. the idea of free will is a greek construct and was assimilated into the bible. If you look at the orginal language of the bible Going to heaven is about electing to be a slave to God. Everywhere in the NT where Jesus speaks about 'servants' the word in the greek means literally a slave. look even in mat 11:28 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry.”

Now granted this is not the slavery presented to us by the way of18th and 19th century America (roots) but it is not free will Even in this life we are not granted with free will as Paul say it we are slaves to sin over and over again in the book of romans. We are slaves that have been given a choice as to whom we wish to serve. God through the atonement offered through christ or to serve sin and ourselves.

If you think you have free will then go and sin no more.

This is an impossible task as Paul puts it in romans :7
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

 

[cvanwey]

paraphrased from what?

Same person...

************

I have no issue with your response above, up to here...

The soul is what decides to turn from the sin controlling the body and spirit. This soul is what is saved. Sin owns the body and spirit and as such the wage of that sin is death.

Upon resurrection the soul is revived and placed in a new mansion/house who body and spirit is not corrupt. The soul has ultimate control of the new body and Spirit as the soul is a servant of God and chooses to hate and keep sin apart from this this new man.

Again upon resurrection the soul will have access to a new uncorrupted body and spirit. if in this life the soul does not cast off and learn to hate sin it will embrace sin again in the next life. The soul upon the death and resurrection has a chance to cast off sin forever if in this life we repent and seek atonement. If not that same soul will carry sin over into the next life which is why not everyone goes to heaven.

Care to provide the passages which support this assertion?

if the soul embraces sin and never repents of it then it can sin after transformation.
well 1) the bible never says we (souls will burn forever.) if you read it specifically the bible says hell is forever the worm of torment is forever and satan and his inner circle will burn forever. When ever the bible of Jesus speaks of Hell and out souls it is always the point of second death. in that hell destroys souls.

What if I provide passages which state to the contrary?

2) not everyone wants to be a slave to God in Heaven. My dad for instance could never serve God happily forever in Heaven. he would make Heaven hell for a great number of us. So for him Hell may be the better option. I do not want to see him tormented by serving in heaven or by the flames of Hell. At least according to the written word Hell is not forever.

What if someone genuinely wishes to change their mind after death, like they have the chance to while alive on earth? Furthermore, as stated above... What if I find verses to the contrary?

There is no freewill period.

Great answer. Now tell all the Christians whom seem to disagree

 

[drich0150]

Care to provide the passages which support this assertion?

Romans 6,7 and 8 granted i condensed alot of it and put a modern twist on it but it is all there is great detail and should not be read as separate chapter but one fluid idea. if you want a lie by line tutorial, lets see what you do with what I've done here first..

What if I provide passages which state to the contrary?

then I will do what I can to help you accept what the bible says and stop where the passages stop. if however you want to hang on to your traditional reading/understanding then you can show me what ever you want and we can discuss it or not it is up to you.

What if someone genuinely wishes to change their mind after death, like they have the chance to while alive on earth?

do you know the story of lazarus and the wealthy man? it was not billed as a parable but something Jesus relayed/Direct non metaphorical teaching, concerning our ability to choose after our death.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 16:19-31 - New International Version
So if you got something greater than the teaching of Jesus Himself on this very topic I would like to hear it.

Furthermore, as stated above... What if I find verses to the contrary?

again see above.

Great answer. Now tell all the Christians whom seem to disagree

so argumentum ad populum? this is your response? a out right logical fallacy? you understand because you elected to use a logical fallacy you whole 'answer' is not valid, just on this permis right?
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

let alone the following:
Show me free will (not the ability to choose between option our master gives us but true free will) in the bible
heck I would even settle for the phrase being contextually used in the bible.
(not free will offering but free will describing our relationship to sin)

just so we are on the same page free will is defined here:
free will
/ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun

1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

So then, is it a sin to be born? (if so book chapter and verse) if not..

then is it possible to live a life without any sin what so ever and deserve to go to heaven?

Not according to Christ Himself, he says no.

Therefore we are slaves to sin. As per the definition we in the realm of sin,( realm being this world this life) do NOT have the freedom to act with out restraint to our fate as sinners and can not act according to our own discretion. Meaning if you wanted to you could not live a sin free life. (otherwise there would not need to be a sacrifice made by Jesus concerning sin and atonement)

Paul himself lements on this very subject at length in this in romans 7. If Paul the apostle the man responsible for 2/3 of the NT says he can not live free from sin then anyone who says he can is calling not only Paul but Christ himself a liar.

So again...

or in other words we are born into a life of sin (not born having sinned, IE being born is not a sin,) but as a chattel slave is born into a life of labor. meaning we will have no choice in this life but to sin, like a chattel slave has no choice in life but to labor. if we are given a choice by our master then this is not free will but simply a choice given by our master. After all some slaves could earn money and go to town on sunday or even pick out their own wives from time to time. but this does not make them free..

picking your job, the color of your car or the person you wish to marry does not free will make. Free will in this context describes a being enslaved by sin and in this life serve his master despite what he or she may personally want. Again Paul himself laments about this. why would we think we are better than the apostle paul in our sin?

14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

If paul admits to being a slave to sin by not doing the good he knows to do but does the evil he does not want to do then how can by the defination provided, we be a free will being? why does he call himself a slave to sin?

Not only is the scripture against the idea of Free will, but History as well!!!

Then you have the issue of the term not even being apart of the lexicon anywhere in the world till the 4th century. meaning the concept of free will did not exist in the time of christ nor when the bible was written or compiled. this is a post christian concept; even then the understand of free will is not what it is today where free will is completely free.

So then how could the bible write of free will before it was even a concept? why does the bible ot introduce it as a concept if in fact this is what God would want for us to believe?

Rather 400 years after Christ and even Paul closed the cannon of scripture free will like Halloween and Christmas was assimilated into Christian belief.