This Topic Was Brought To My Attention By....

[cvanwey]

@Eight Foot Manchild

He stated, and I quote.....

'No one goes to heaven.'

Paraphrased thereafter, he made the brilliant point that no one sins in heaven. Hence, you are completely transformed anew, upon ascending into heaven. You are no longer you.

Which begs such starting question(s); maybe there might be more there-after, who knows...? :0

If sin is not applicable in heaven, because once you cross the threshold, you will no longer sin, why doesn't everyone go to heaven? All people will sin, right up until the point of 'transformation'.

And secondly, for now anyways, how does one enjoy heaven, knowing some of their close loved ones are on the opposite side for eternity?

And third, does freewill 'really' exist in the afterlife?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Third, yes.
Second, as written.
First, people must be born again or they will never even see heaven. Most people reject Jesus, so are never born again, and never see heaven.

 

[Hammster]

You are no longer you.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
— 2 Corinthians 5:17
Already happened.

 

[cvanwey]

Third, yes.

How does that work exactly? Can you please elaborate?

Second, as written.

What verse(s) quantify this scenario?

First, people must be born again or they will never even see heaven. Most people reject Jesus, so are never born again, and never see heaven.

Okay, but are you reborn with amnesia to your former human family, whom did not make it with you? Are you then born with the enability to 'sin'? Remember, this 'being born again' stuff happens (after) natural death. You can be a 'born again' on earth, but you will still posses 'sin.'

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How does that work exactly? Can you please elaborate?

It doesn't "work", exactly or otherwise. It is not a concept mankind can understand nor comprehend.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What verse(s) quantify this scenario?

I don't know.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You can be a 'born again' on earth, but you will still posses 'sin.'

I think it is written "sin dwells in me", in one of the Epistles, if that's what you mean.

this 'being born again' stuff happens (after) natural death.

No. A person must be born again BEFORE they die, or they are not saved and will never see heaven.
Perhaps this misunderstanding is why so many of your questions do not make 'sense' being repeated and answered and repeated again as if not understood - Jesus says clearly the answers, the truth, the spirituals, the reality, cannot be understood by the natural, fleshly , carnal mind/man/person.

 

[cvanwey]

I think it is written "sin dwells in me", in one of the Epistles, if that's what you mean.

You are not addressing my responses. Please do not chop the important parts of my responses to instead spin your 'own' results:

"Okay, but are you reborn with amnesia to your former human family, whom did not make it with you? Are you then born with the enability to 'sin'? Remember, this 'being born again' stuff happens (after) natural death. You can be a 'born again' on earth, but you will still posses 'sin.'"

No. A person must be born again BEFORE they die, or they are not saved and will never see heaven.

Yes, as I eluded to above, which you chopped.

Perhaps this misunderstanding is why so many of your questions do not make 'sense' being repeated and answered and repeated again as if not understood - Jesus says clearly the answers, the truth, the spirituals, the reality, cannot be understood by the natural, fleshly , carnal mind/man/person.

Please see above.

And let's try this again.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You are not addressing my responses. Please do not chop the important parts of my responses to instead spin your 'own' results:

I'm not spinning anything. As though you appear to always continue to do, to avoid believing.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, as I eluded to above, which you chopped.

Get real and stop spinning as if that will work, please.

As you quoted yourself, you said this born again stuff happen after natural death.
That is plainly and simply not true in any context I know of.

 

[cvanwey]

It doesn't "work", exactly or otherwise. It is not a concept mankind can understand nor comprehend.

Then ignore the question.

You seem to think there exists some ethereal 'freewill' in heaven. I'd like to know how this is possible, if you are not allowed, and/or able/capable of sin?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then ignore the question.

You seem to think there exists some ethereal 'freewill' in heaven. I'd like to know how this is possible, if you are not allowed, and/or able/capable of sin?

Why would you even want to know such things ?

 

[cvanwey]

Get real and stop spinning as if that will work, please.

As you quoted yourself, you said this born again stuff happen after natural death.
That is plainly and simply not true in any context I know of.

I said 'born again' works in both... Meaning, you can be 'born again' on earth, but will continue to sin. The 'born again, after natural death, is when you apparently 'transform, and no longer sin, and apparently are in eternal bliss in heaven, maybe despite your loved ones burning in hell.

Can you rationalize this concept, or is it just another one of those topics we chalk up to, 'it's beyond human understanding'?

 

[cvanwey]

Why would you even want to know such things ?

Because it's your asserted 'reality', which is imposed upon the ones whom don't believe it, day in and day out, that's all.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Because it's your asserted 'reality', which is imposed upon the ones whom don't believe it, day in and day out, that's all.

It is not imposed on anyone.
Most people choose not to believe the truth.
Even God does not force them (impose on them) to change.
So they perish, because of their choice. (free will, so to speak. God does not take it away unless He Says So)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The 'born again, after natural death, is when you apparently 'transform, and no longer sin, and apparently are in eternal bliss in heaven, maybe despite your loved ones burning in hell.

Can you rationalize this concept, or is it just another one of those topics we chalk up to, 'it's beyond human understanding'?

Do you understand? Or know and trust anyone who does understand ?

Being transformed and no longer sin, eternally joyous in the life to come,
has nothing to do with being born again.

Yet a man must be born again (circumcised heart not by human hands) to ever even see heaven (the life to come).

 

[cvanwey]

Do you understand? Or know and trust anyone who does understand ?

Being transformed and no longer sin, eternally joyous in the life to come,
has nothing to do with being born again.

Yet a man must be born again (circumcised heart not by human hands) to ever even see heaven (the life to come).

You are bantering semantics. You know exactly what is meant, and what I mean. If you can't legitimately answer the questions, then just observe, or try another thread.

Thanks

 

[cvanwey]

It is not imposed on anyone.
Most people choose not to believe the truth.

It is imposed upon daily to many. You are incorrect. Just like other religions are to many.

Even God does not force them (impose on them) to change.

No, He instead offers an ultimatum or a threat, in His Word. 'My way or the highway.'

So they perish, because of their choice. (free will, so to speak. God does not take it away unless He Says So)

It's no different than a traffic law. Yes, you can choose to run the red light, but if you get caught, can you choose whether or not you get a ticket? In God's case, He sees all. His rules are followed, or you get punished. This is not freewill:

Freewill - "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

 

[cvanwey]

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
— 2 Corinthians 5:17
Already happened.

I agree. This is a Christian claim. Now how might one reconcile the questions offered, in relation to this claim?

I'll reiterate the above point He asserted:

1. If you are anew, does this mean you now have amnesia from your earthly closest family and loved ones, whom did not believe and are burning eternally? How does eternal bliss also involve grieving for your unsaved loved ones?

2. Does any concept of 'freewill' exist in heaven? Remember, once you cross that threshold, you no longer sin. Either because you have no desire to, or are simply incapable. Which means, if anyone whom crosses such a threshold, can no longer commit sin against God, why not let everyone cross that threshold?

 

[Hammster]

I agree. This is a Christian claim. Now how might one reconcile the questions offered, in relation to this claim?

I'll reiterate the above point He asserted:

1. If you are anew, does this mean you now have amnesia from your earthly closest family and loved ones, whom did not believe and are burning eternally? How does eternal bliss also involve grieving for your unsaved loved ones?

2. Does any concept of 'freewill' exist in heaven? Remember, once you cross that threshold, you no longer sin. Either because you have no desire to, or are simply incapable. Which means, if anyone whom crosses such a threshold, can no longer commit sin against God, why not let everyone cross that threshold?

1. I don’t know.

2. Yes, free will exists.

2a. Repent and believe the gospel. You, too, can cross that threshold.