This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2015

ZacharyB said:
TBL,
I always start out as you would have me do,
but because of so much spiritual blindness,
I become frustrated and resort to what you are complaining of.
And it cannot be all blindness ...
how about some downright disobedience and rebellion
... refusal to accept the clear warnings in Scripture.
Let's face it, the churches today are filled with believers who love their sin!
Don't you know we're in the Laodicean church age?

What changes a heart? What changes a person that is in church, but loves to sin?

What has the Holy Spirit done in your life that you are not like all these others?

Why do human beings come to Christ in the first place?

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2015

The problem that I really have with many people that have out their sin-o-meter is that judging others really does nothing to bring about change.

So does this stance change lives? How much sin keeps one out of heaven and how is that guaged?

klutedavid · Nov 22, 2015

ZacharyB said:
A Scriptural example that believers can indeed lose salvation
because of habitual sinning is seen in my signature below.
Can't you "see" it?

Hello Zachary.

Do you still sin?

Job8 · Nov 22, 2015

The terms "easy grace" and "OSAS" are both misnomers and misleading. God's grace is full and free because a tremendous price was paid by the Lord Jesus Christ. And the eternal security of the believer rests on the finished work of Christ altogether. Eternal life is God's GIFT to the sinner who repents and believes. Jude is clearly talking about pretenders -- those who claim to be Christians but are in fact unsaved, ungodly, and unregenerate. Gnostics had crept into all the churches and were teaching licentiousness instead of holiness. These were wolves in sheep's clothing.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2015

-57 said:
I would say we can't even have faith unless we're regenerated.

What I requested was Scripture that says what you say.

We can't even believe unless were regenerated.

Again, Scripture please, that says what you say.

As you pointed out above..."Eph 2:5 - even when we were dead in our transgressions"...we were DEAD. Dead to the point we couldn't/can't believe.

Eph 2:5 says nothing of the kind. Nothing about "dead to the point we couldn't/can't believe". That's just your private interpretation of it. In fact, Paul EQUATED 2 terms: "being made alive" and "have been saved". They are equal. They go together. Can't have either one without the other one. That was his point.

God gives us the ability to believe.

Actually, He gave everyone that ability because He gave everyone a conscience with which to understand right and wrong. Rom 2:14,15.

Verse 2:8 points out grace and faith are a gift from God.

Actually, the "gift of God" refers back to "have been saved". The gift is our salvation, which is supported by Rom 6:23 which says that eternal life is a gift of God.

And salvation and eternal life are EQUATED. Can't have either one without the other one. They go together.

But the point is that one is saved THROUGH FAITH, which PROVES that faith precedes being saved or being made alive.

If you disagree, then please exegete the verses to prove that my view is wrong.

Actually I think regeneration and faith happen at the same moment....but if I had to look at it linearly I would say regeneration comes first.

Actually 1 Jn 5:1 indicates that they occur at the same time. But Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly show that faith precedes regeneration.

Of course if you are into pelagianism or semi pelagianism I understand you will want to argue the point.

I've not studied either position. But I'm totally into what the Bible says. And I look forward to the verses that support your claims.[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2015

I said this:
"Please cite a verse that teaches this. This is a challenge.
... please show where one must be a disciple in order to receive salvation.

I can show many verses that plainly tell us that we receive salvation
and eternal life on the basis of faith, apart from any other condition."

ZacharyB said:
Jesus indicated this in John 15 ... see el posto #46.

I'm not interested in your posts, but what Scripture says. And you failed to note which verses in John 15 show where one must be a disciple in order to receive salvation.

In fact, that is not even possible, because in John 15 Jesus is speaking to the 11 remaining SAVED disciples. They were already saved. There is NOTHING in John 15 about how to receive salvation. Why would Jesus address how to receive salvation to those who ALREADY have it??

Guess you haven't read where it says FAITH W/O WORKS IS DEAD.
Can one get into heaven w/o faith?

Another passage that has been terribly misunderstood. James 2 is about demonstrating one's faith. iow, the ONLY way others can know you have faith is by your actions.

To answer your 2nd question, one gets into heaven by receiving eternal life. So, how does one receive eternal life? by believing in Jesus Christ for it.

Isaiah55:6 · Nov 22, 2015

1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2015

ZacharyB said:
A Scriptural example that believers can indeed lose salvation
because of habitual sinning is seen in my signature below.
Can't you "see" it?

Just quoting a verse or passage doesn't get the job done. Please exegete the verses to prove your view of it.

But, in fact, that cannot be done because the passage isn't even speaking of eternal life or eternal death. It is speaking of which nature one is "presenting themselves as slaves to obey" (6:16). When the believer functions from his sinful nature, he sins. When he functions from his new nature, under the power of the Holy Spirit, he doesn't sin. Very simple.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 22, 2015

ZacharyB said:
Because many people cannot read with understanding, spiritual or otherwise.

Does Jesus go around killing people because they sin habitually,
resulting in their (physical) death?

When did Jesus "go around killing anyone" for any reason??? Please advise.

ToBeLoved · Nov 22, 2015

Job8 said:
The terms "easy grace" and "OSAS" are both misnomers and misleading. God's grace is full and free because a tremendous price was paid by the Lord Jesus Christ. And the eternal security of the believer rests on the finished work of Christ altogether. Eternal life is God's GIFT to the sinner who repents and believes. Jude is clearly talking about pretenders -- those who claim to be Christians but are in fact unsaved, ungodly, and unregenerate. Gnostics had crept into all the churches and were teaching licentiousness instead of holiness. These were wolves in sheep's clothing.

Jesus paid a big price . There is no such thing as easy grace

-57 · Nov 23, 2015

ZacharyB said:
Because many people cannot read with understanding, spiritual or otherwise.

Does Jesus go around killing people because they sin habitually,
resulting in their (physical) death?

That's your reply? Seriously? That's it?

-57 · Nov 23, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Are you serious? There are so many verses that talk about how we are saved through faith. Faith and belief are part of what brings us to Christ.

Yes I'm serious. How can someone dead in their sins and transgressions have faith...unless God quickens them?

sdowney717 · Nov 23, 2015

When Christ speaks, men live, men rise from death.

The Authority of the Son
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.

The Son gives life to whom he wishes

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Eternal life now not just later.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Those who are dead who hear the Son will live. Those who believe today are those who have heard the voice of the Son of God and and are now alive who were dead in sins and trespasses. They have received spiritual ears as a gift from God to hear the voice of the Son, and believe in Him.

25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

At the judgement all the dead will hear the Son and rise from death to be judged.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

ToBeLoved · Nov 23, 2015

-57 said:
Yes I'm serious. How can someone dead in their sins and transgressions have faith...unless God quickens them?

Is the root of what your saying involve Calvanistic thinking? If it does I know where you are going and I disagree 100%

ToBeLoved · Nov 23, 2015

-57 said:
Yes I'm serious. How can someone dead in their sins and transgressions have faith...unless God quickens them?

This death is a spiritual death. They are spiritually dead, but this in no way says that they cannot have faith. We all come to Jesus Christ in faith.

ZacharyB · Nov 23, 2015

All I have to say to you guys in this ...

"... narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
(eternal) life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:14)

My most sincere apology for adding to Scripture. lol
Enjoy your easy ride ... but, to where are you going?
'Tis a great shame that I'm not allowed here to say more!

ToBeLoved · Nov 23, 2015

ZacharyB said:
All I have to say to you guys in this ...

"... narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to
(eternal) life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:14)

My most sincere apology for adding to Scripture. lol
Enjoy your easy ride ... but, to where are you going?
'Tis a great shame that I'm not allowed here to say more!

I just would caution you to teaching. You are not ready yet. You do not have the tools to prove your point in any condusive way.

Sometimes more harm is brought to God's kingdom. Think about what I wrote earlier.

I hope that you open your heart to the Holy Spirit so that He can guide you in truth. When people get to set on doctrine, it can hurt the Holy Spirit trying to share truth with them.

-57 · Nov 23, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
This death is a spiritual death. They are spiritually dead, but this in no way says that they cannot have faith. We all come to Jesus Christ in faith.

...and you can't have that faith unless God gives it to you.

-57 · Nov 23, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Is the root of what your saying involve Calvanistic thinking? If it does I know where you are going and I disagree 100%

Is the root of what your saying involve Pelagiustic thinking? If it does I know where you are going and I disagree 100%

ToBeLoved · Nov 23, 2015

-57 said:
...and you can't have that faith unless God gives it to you.

All are given a measure of faith.

Calvanism is a horrible doctrine.

This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

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