This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

[ZacharyB]

This scripture IS NOT talking about
salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ. Next.

Are any of the OT examples,
which Paul instructs (warns) us to heed, about
salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ? Next.

 

[-57]

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

.....so, just who is going to snatch a believer out of the Fathers hand?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Are any of the OT examples,
which Paul instructs us to heed (re: warnings), about
salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ?

Of course Paul tells us all that if we are not saved that we should 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling' which is true. Every person needs forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ.

Most of what Paul warned about was 'another gospel message' other than Jesus Christ dying for our sins and through the grace of God we are also saved through Jesus Christ. There were many preachers of the Law that tried to come in and change the gospel message to works rather than grace.

Paul, previously being Saul a Pharisee knew the Law better than most. Paul preached constantly against the Law. Jesus brought us the New Covenant, a better Covenant with the PERMANANT forgiveness of sin (under the Law they previously only had temporary atonement for sin through the blood of animals they sacrificed) and an EVERLASTING Covenant.

I do not believe that Paul pointed back to the Law at all. Of course Jesus fulfilled the Law and left us with the two most important commandments.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I will just add in passing that I think that the title of this thread, particularly the phrase 'Easy Grace' is disrespectful to our Savior. There was nothing easy about what our Savior did for us.

That is my opinion and I hate to see that phrase.

 

[ZacharyB]

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish;
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

.....so, just who is going to snatch a believer out of the Fathers hand?

Nobody, except maybe yourself.

You really need to understand who these special believers are.
E.G. Are you one of them?
You really need to understand exactly what the words in red are referring to!

Do you hear the Father's voice?
Does He know you, as Matthew 7:21-23 warns about?
Do you follow Him, as in all of Jesus' commandments?

I'm here to warn you that you have been misled by today's apostate Laodicean churches!
I suggest that you believe Scripture instead of "the doctrines of men".

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nobody, except maybe yourself.

You really need to understand who these special believers are.
E.G. Are you one of them?
You really need to understand exactly what the words in red are referring to!

Do you hear the Father's voice?
Does He know you, as in Matthew 7:21?
Do you follow Him, as in all of Jesus' commandments?

How are you telling us 'who these special believers are'?

All born-again Christians to whom Jesus Christ has sent the Holy Spirit to indwell are believers saved by grace. Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a down payment of their future inheritance in Christ. Having the Holy Spirit, our spirit and the Holy Spirit together confirm that we are one of Christ's Own.

I don't see what you have outlined in red that in any way talks about these 'special believers'? Who are they? What believer has any higher standing than any other believer?

 

[-57]

Nobody, except maybe yourself.

You really need to understand who these special believers are.
E.G. Are you one of them?
You really need to understand exactly what the words in red are referring to!

Do you hear the Father's voice?
Does He know you, as in Matthew 7:21?
Do you follow Him, as in all of Jesus' commandments?

"Nobody, except maybe yourself.".....You know, you're not allowed to add stuff to the bible. Where does the bible teach you can snatch yourself out of Gods hand? A chapter and verse would be nice.

 

[-57]

Do you follow Him, as in all of Jesus' commandments?

ZacharyB, let me ask you this....do you follow all, every single one of Jesus commandments?
You see, I don't think you do. I don't think you can. In fact no one can. Which means according to your post no one can be saved.

 

[JLB777]

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation,
I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for
the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this
condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness
and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The NKJV calls these people “apostates” (3 times in section headings).

“This verse (4) is very similar to a passage written by Peter in his second letter (2 Peter 2:1-3).
These false teachers were teaching that it didn’t matter whether a person sinned or not,
because no matter how much one sinned, God’s grace was sufficient to cleanse him;
therefore, they said, a Christian could do whatever he pleased (see Rom 6:1-2, 2 Peter 3:16).
By their own evil behavior, these false teachers were denying Christ. Men deny Christ
not only by what they say, but also by what they do (Titus 1:16).”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary -- Thomas Hale, 1996, ChariotVictor Publishing)

2 Peter 2:1-3
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will
be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,
even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom
the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time
their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Yes, I agree, easy grace and OSAS certainly are destructive heresies!
And they must be incredibly destructive indeed (worse than sins) …
… because I don’t see above where any repentance is even possible.

Yes Brother. Great word.


Likewise Peter goes on to say in 2 Peter 2 that it will be worse for those Apostates than for unbelievers.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


JLB

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am not seeing what in this thread end's any discussion about OSAS as the title would indicate.

Where is all this great evidence?

 

[JLB777]

I am not seeing what in this thread end's any discussion about OSAS as the title would indicate.

Where is all this great evidence?

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


If you can't see, then ask the Lord for eye salve, that you may see the truth.


JLB

 

[ZacharyB]

Several of the NT Scriptures tell us to prepare accordingly, because
Jesus is coming back for a church which is
holy and perfect, without spot or blemish, etc.
But, does this apply to believers during the past 2000 years?
Until this moment, I thought NO.
But, perhaps it refers to the resurrection?

 

[ToBeLoved]

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


If you can't see, then ask the Lord for eye salve, that you may see the truth.


JLB

This is talking about people who are apostate. Of course our Lord does not want to see any of His Children get ensnared in the ways of this world.

What is your point? The Word tells us that God is fair and just to forgive us our sin.

 

[ZacharyB]

2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteous-ness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Yes, actually I have been ignoring this passage, and its' companion passage in Hebrews.

Kinda like most believers ignore the other 100 dire warnings which are less threatening!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Can you please give us the evidence?

 

[ZacharyB]

What believer has any higher standing than any other believer?

There are all kinds of "believers"!
Starting at the bottom with ...
the intellectual believers who have never received the Holy Spirit.

All the way to the top with ...
some of the Spirit-filled believers who are really into holiness.

Spirit-filled believers have been given the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(the evidence of which is speaking a few words in tongues) ...
and are thus qualified by God (not by men) to be part of the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11),
and are thus qualified to receive one or more of the 9 spiritual power gifts (1 Cor 12).

ALL of the leaders of the NT churches belonged in this last group.
Every single one ... guaranteed.
And, of course, this was to be the pattern for the church forever ...

 

[ToBeLoved]

There are all kinds of "believers", starting with ...
the intellectual believers who have never received the Holy Spirit.

All believers who are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not optional upon salvation. We are given the Holy Spirit by Christ.

 

[JLB777]

Yes, actually I have been ignoring this passage, and its' companion passage in Hebrews.

Kinda like most believers ignore the other 100 dire warnings which are less threatening!

Hebrews is a warning to the Jews to not turn back to the law from Christ, under the threat of persecution.

Start with Hebrews 3:12 and read through the end of Chapter 10 as one complete thought.


This is the same warning as the parable of the Sower, as likened to the second seed group

Read all accounts, esp Matthew and Luke for a full picture.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-14


Believe for a while = Saved for a while


A person who believes temporarily, then later no longer believes, has returned to being an unbeliever.

Un-Believers will have their part in the lake of fire.

Fall way here in verse 13, is the same expression [Greek word] as "depart from" in Hebrews 3:12.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB

 

[-57]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-14


JLB

The verse tells us they had no root.
One test of truth faith is perseverance. Their falling away showed that they never really believed.

 

[ZacharyB]

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Believe = Saved
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-14
Believe for a while = Saved for a while

So, I raise the question about "believe" for everyone to ponder ...
Are we talking about:
(1) believing for a while intellectually?
(2) believing for a while in the heart (after receiving the Holy Spirit)?
(3) believing for a while in the heart (after receiving the Holy Spirit)
enough to live righteously? For example:
-- obeying Jesus' commandments
-- co-operating to be fully sanctified unto holiness

Because of all of the many warnings about
the dire consequences of continual sinning ...
I am convinced that TRUE SAVING BELIEF refers to (3).