This line cannot be logically true...

[AskTheFamily]

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ لَا يَهْدِيهِمُ اللَّهُ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{104}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 16:104] (As for) those who do not believe in Allah's communications, surely Allah will not guide them, and they shall have a painful punishment.

Everyone at one point does not believe in God's communications, even if was just when your a kid (and didn't know about religion)...

If God won't guide them...then how will they ever believe?

Also, this makes punishment not only for all those whom disbelieve in Islam, but all those whom didn't believe in it...what about those whom didn't hear the message...

Anyways I think I'm at about 36 Issues with Quran now, lost count again...

But I think I might end up around 50...the more I think about the book with no longer the bias that makes me want to think everything it says makes sense and must be true, because you know, there is nothing like it! the more I see errors and problems...


[/SIZE]

 

[Rascaduanok]

HAH! You’ve stumbled upon one point which repeats throughout the entire qur’an. allah repeatedly claims to guide the believers, and actively misguide nonbelievers! allah sets a seal on their hearts so that they cannot believe. Then, naturally, will cast them into hell for non–belief. Ridiculous!

 

[Arthra]

[SIZE=-1]"...What about those whom didn't hear the message..."

[/SIZE]"...Allah repeatedly claims to guide the believers.."

My comment:

I came across the following:

"To every people is an Apostle, when their apostle comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged."

~ Qur'an (Yunus) 10:47

Another one:

"And it was never the part of an Apostle to bring a sign except as Allah permitted. For each period is a Book (revealed)."

~ Qur'an (Ar-Ra'd) 13:38

 

[Rationalt]

[SIZE=-1]"...What about those whom didn't hear the message..."

[/SIZE]"...Allah repeatedly claims to guide the believers.."

My comment:

I came across the following:

"To every people is an Apostle, when their apostle comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged."

~ Qur'an (Yunus) 10:47

Another one:

"And it was never the part of an Apostle to bring a sign except as Allah permitted. For each period is a Book (revealed)."

~ Qur'an (Ar-Ra'd) 13:38

The Only signs Allah of Arabia knew are with the Torah and some Unknown Gospels of Jesus.

Kinda make Allah ignorant fellow or somebody who read ONLY Torah.

Allah's repeated claims are of Usurping Torah.Planting himself on Yahweh of Torah while twisting the torah to suit the needs of his sock puppet muhammad.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

You know, you'll never truly break free from the religion you belonged to until you stop obsessing about its "holy" texts. (Provided that you want to be independent, of course.)

 

[AskTheFamily]

[SIZE=-1]"...What about those whom didn't hear the message..."

[/SIZE]"...Allah repeatedly claims to guide the believers.."

My comment:

I came across the following:

"To every people is an Apostle, when their apostle comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged."

~ Qur'an (Yunus) 10:47

Another one:

"And it was never the part of an Apostle to bring a sign except as Allah permitted. For each period is a Book (revealed)."

~ Qur'an (Ar-Ra'd) 13:38

There were many people had no clue about a Messenger, like people living in North America. Many people whom had no idea of a book revealed.

This is just a fact. And even they did heard about a book being revealed, how where they suppose to believe in something they didn't have full knowledge of? If the proof was not there, how were they expected to believe?

Aside from that problem, is the verse says God will never guide person whom doesn't believe in God's Signs...how will they be guided to belief then?

 

[Montalban]

There were many people had no clue about a Messenger, like people living in North America. Many people whom had no idea of a book revealed.

This is just a fact. And even they did heard about a book being revealed, how where they suppose to believe in something they didn't have full knowledge of? If the proof was not there, how were they expected to believe?

Aside from that problem, is the verse says God will never guide person whom doesn't believe in God's Signs...how will they be guided to belief then?

A good point. I wonder if Arthra knows of the prophets the Australian Aborigines had too?

 

[Rascaduanok]

You know, you'll never truly break free from the religion you belonged to until you stop obsessing about its "holy" texts. (Provided that you want to be independent, of course.)

Absolutely. But people keep dragging me in, either by doing stupid things like supporting the punishment for apostasy, or else by hounding ‘normal’ muslims (remember, my family are muslims) as lying, deceitful, secret jihadists.

I get your general point though. Obsession, even negative, is still a form of devotion.

 

[Arthra]

"There were many people had no clue about a Messenger, like people living in North America. Many people whom had no idea of a book revealed."

Native American Spirituality

Also:

Sacred Hopi tablets

Hopi tradition tells of sacred tablets which were imparted to the Hopi by various deities. Like most of Hopi mythology, accounts differ as to when the tablets were given and in precisely what manner.
Perhaps the most important was said to be in the possession of the Fire Clan, and is related to the return of the Pahana. In one version, an elder of the Fire Clan worried that his people would not recognize the Pahana when he returned from the east. He therefore etched various designs including a human figure into a stone, and then broke off the section of the stone which included the figure's head. This section was given to Pahana and he was told to bring it back with him so that the Hopi would not be deceived by a witch or sorcerer.[24] This one is Truth, the stone has an Indian face of black, white and grey with black feathers, and it is not etched but looks more like ink that soaked into the stone.
Another version has it that the Fire Clan was given a sacred tablet by Masauwu, who as the giver of fire was their chief deity. In this version the human figure was purposely drawn without a head, and a corner of the stone was broken off. Masauwu told them that eventually the Pahana would return bringing the broken-off corner of the stone, but if in the meantime a Hopi leader accepted a false religion, he must assent to having his head cut off as drawn on the stone.[25]
This same story holds that three other sacred tablets were also given to the Hopi. These were given to the Bear Clan by their patron deity Söqömhonaw, and essentially constituted a divine title to the lands where the Hopi settled after their migrations. The Hopi had a Universal Snake Dance. The third of these was etched with designs including the sun, moon, stars, clouds, etc. on one side with six human figures on the other.[26]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_prophecies#cite_note-28

http://www.sustainedaction.org/Explorations/book_of_the_hopi_by_frank_waters.htm




"I wonder if Arthra knows of the prophets the Australian Aborigines had too?"

Australian Aboriginal Prophecies - Crystalinks

"The hallmark of Aboriginal culture is 'oneness with nature'. In traditional Aboriginal belief systems, nature and landscape are comparable in importance to the bible in Christian culture. Prominent rocks, canyons, rivers, waterfalls, islands, beaches and other natural features - as well as sun, moon, visible stars and animals - have their own stories of creation and inter-connectedness. To the traditional Aborigine they are all sacred: environment is the essence of Australian Aboriginal godliness. Out of this deep reverence for nature Aborigines learned to live in remarkable harmony with the land and its animals.
It seems there's a lot our modern world can learn from these people."

Source:

http://www.didjshop.com/shop1/AbCulturecart.html

 

[AskTheFamily]

Arthra, it says "various deities"...what did they have with them that was proof of Messengerhood of One God?...by what you posted, it shows they had falsehood amongst them, if they believed in it, they would be believing false things and polytheism.

How did they believe in the communications of God when what they had told them false things and didn't teach them the things Quran taught? They weren't even taught monotheism...they believe in other deities.. none of them stated they were given the book by the one true God and told to Worship God alone...so where did you get the notion that these are Messengers? How is believing these tales and believing in deities translates in believing a Messenger and the "ayatallah"?

How does a story of a people being given writings from multiple deities imply Messengers from the one true God? If people believed in these writings, they would believing in multiple deities...how does this translate into believing in "Ayatallah"?

 

[razeontherock]

Aside from that problem, is the verse says God will never guide person whom doesn't believe in God's Signs...how will they be guided to belief then?

Good point! I don't see a message of love and acceptance, but I am no expert on those texts.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Good point! I don't see a message of love and acceptance, but I am no expert on those texts.

I think Mohammad was very good at rhyming but not very good at analyzing logically what he was saying. This is just one instance where it's a slip of tongue. He wants to condemn people whom don't believe in God's communications/guidance, but says an absurd thing, that such people will never be guided by God and they will have a severe punishment.

The Quran is full of this type of speech. It praises believers as if they can never disbelieve in many instances, and condemns disbelievers in a sense they will never believe...it talks about them as if their fates are sealed.

However other places take account they can change and states the exception...it just not all places did..only a few places do it.

It's not really a matter of compassion and love, it's a matter of logic here I see it. He didn't really realize what he was saying. God will not guide disbelievers, God will not guide those whom do not believe, God will not guide unjust person, etc..basically it seals the fate of people.

Ofcourse you can get by other verses that disbelievers can believe, and be guided, unjust person can reform, repent, and be guided, those whom don't believe can be guided...but it doesn't make the verses that said otherwise go away.

So it's really about bad logic...he uttered statements that no one takes as logically true.

No one thinks a person whom doesn't believe in God's revelations can never believe in them and be guided. But this is what this verse is stating.

It's making an absurd statement. Muslims don't notice these absurd statements because they believe Quran is error free and everything in it makes sense - so anything that is absurd is blocked out of their minds.

I know because I read Quran many times and saw no errors in it - and when I would find potential errors, it would be a few. As soon I doubted in it, I saw so much more errors then the few that I saw. Then I saw a lot more when I disbelieved in it and could no longer believe it was true.

The bias makes you not see it. I suspect the same may be true of the bible.

 

[razeontherock]

Well it is possible to go to the Bible looking for errors, and looking for errors in God's Judgment. That's exactly what I did!

 

[Arthra]

Arthra, it says "various deities"...what did they have with them that was proof of Messengerhood of One God?...by what you posted, it shows they had falsehood amongst them, if they believed in it, they would be believing false things and polytheism.

How did they believe in the communications of God when what they had told them false things and didn't teach them the things Quran taught? They weren't even taught monotheism...they believe in other deities.. none of them stated they were given the book by the one true God and told to Worship God alone...so where did you get the notion that these are Messengers? How is believing these tales and believing in deities translates in believing a Messenger and the "ayatallah"?

How does a story of a people being given writings from multiple deities imply Messengers from the one true God? If people believed in these writings, they would believing in multiple deities...how does this translate into believing in "Ayatallah"?

Not necessarily.. Your statement above was:

"There were many people had no clue about a Messenger, like people living in North America. Many people whom had no idea of a book revealed."

I posted that material about the Hopis to show you this is not necessarily so! They had a consciousness of a messenger and sacred tablets.. Their conception of "multiple deities" could have been similar to what remained of Abraham's monotheism after centuries of time in the middle east..also it is possible some of the ancient people confused the attributes of God as being multiple "gods" and forgot the ancient monotheism.I'm posting here an excerpt from a site:


Monotheism is the natural instinct placed into the people by God (Quran 30:30). The message of “worship God Alone” is universal and was preached by all messengers from God. With time, the practice of religion frequently deteriorated to incorporate polytheistic elements. Yet traces of the original monotheism can be found in many, if not all, of these religions.
Hinduism today is perhaps the most prevalent of the religions considered as polytheistic. Yet, a number of authorities agree that the original principles of Hinduism advocate monotheism. In Hinduism, the Creator and Absolute God is called “Brahman”. Brahman is referred to as formless or “nirakara”, and beyond anything that we can conceive of and has no gender, form or features. The various gods and goddesses are thus merely manifestations of the One God. In fact many passages in Hindu scriptures seem to suggest the worship of One God. To quote from the Gayatri Mantra in the Yajur Veda:

Let us meditate on God, His glorious attributes,
who is the basis of everything in this universe as its Creator,
who is fit to be worshiped as Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient
and self existent concious being,
who removes all ignorance and impurities from the mind
and purifies and sharpens the intellect.

The justification for setting up of gods and goddesses in Hinduism is that it helps human in visualizing and compreheding Brahman (God). We know from Quran that no visions can encompass God (6:103) and therefore while to God belongs the Most beautiful names and attributes (7:180, 20:8), setting up idols and deities and worshipping them instead of God is not what God wants (2:22, 3:64, 7:3, etc.) .

Dr Clifford Wilson former director of the Australian Institute of Archaeology describes in his book, “The A.B.C. of Biblical Archaeology”, evidence of monotheism seen in many ancient cultures. We present some extracts from chapter 11 of his book titled “The Concept Of Monotheism In Ancient Times”. The book is available online at: http://www.onlinebible.net/topics.html. We also augment the discussion with Quranic references.

Monotheism in Ancient Egypt

Monotheism was known in very early times. The Egyptian Book of the Dead demonstrates that the Egyptian people originally believed in one great God and not many. With the passage of time, each of the known attributes of the true God were personified as new and individual deities - and so, polytheism developed.

That view is well documented by the famous Egyptologist, Sir Wallis Budge, in his best-known text, The Book of the Dead. Following are statements from the Book of the Dead as to the attributes of the true God, selected from The Papyrus of Ani:

"A Hymn To Amen-Ra ... president of all the gods ... Lord of the heavens ... Lord of Truth ... maker of men; creator of beasts ... Ra, whose word is truth, the Governor of the world, the mighty one of valour, the chiefs who made the world as he made himself. His forms are more numerous than those of any god ... "Adoration be to thee, O Maker of the Gods, who hast stretched out the heavens and founded the earth! ... Lord of eternity, maker of the everlastingness ... creator of light ... He heareth the prayer of the oppressed one, he is kind of heart to him that calleth upon him, he delivereth the timid man from the oppressor ... He is the Lord of knowledge, and Wisdom is the utterance of his mouth. "He maketh the green herb whereon the cattle live, and the staff of life whereon men live. He maketh the fish to live in the rivers, and the feathered fowl in the sky. He giveth life to that which is in the egg ... "Hail to thee, O thou maker of all these things, thou ONLY ONE. In his mightiness he taketh many forms."
Wallis Budge states: "After reading the above extracts it is impossible not to conclude that the ideas of the ancient Egyptians about God were of a very exalted character, and it is clear that they made in their minds a sharp distinction between God and the "gods" ... Here then we have One God who was self-created, self-existent and almighty, who created the universe."

Other scholars have endorsed the arguments of Sir Wallis Budge, and he himself quotes others. One example is:

"As a result of their studies of Egyptian texts, many of the earlier Egyptologists, e.g. Champollion-Figeac, de Rouge, Pierret and Brugsch, came to the conclusion that the dwellers in the Nile Valley, from the earliest times, believed in the existence of one God, nameless, incomprehensible, and eternal." (p.105)

Sir Flinders Petrie, the famous Egyptologist, had the same belief. In The Religion of Ancient Egypt, published by Constable, London, 1908, he wrote:

"Were the conception of a god only an evolution from such spirit worship, we should find the worship of many gods preceding the worship of one god ... What we actually find is the contrary of this, monotheism is the first stage traceable in theology ... Wherever we can trace polytheism back to its earliest stages, we find that it results from combinations of monotheism. … Each city appears to have had but one god belonging to it, to whom others were in time added. Similarly, Babylonian cities each had their supreme god, and the combinations of these and their transformations in order to form them into groups when their homes were politically united, show how essentially they were solitary deities at first."

Monotheism Preceded Polytheism

Other people were also originally monotheists, knowing of only one true God. The late Dr. Arthur C. Custance wrote a series called The Doorway Papers (Brockville, Ontario, Canada). In Paper 34 he gives evidence to show that this was the case with many such people, contrary to the views of many scholars. At first scholars examining the records of ancient peoples:
“... found themselves dealing with a tremendous number of gods and goddesses and other spiritual powers of a lesser sort which seemed to be always at war with one another and, much of the time, highly destructive. … As earlier and earlier tablets, however, began to be excavated and brought to light, and skill in deciphering them increased, the first picture of gross polytheism began to be replaced by something more nearly approaching a hierarchy of spiritual beings organized into a kind of court with one Supreme Being over all." (p. 3)
Stephen Langdon’s “Semitic Mythology” in 1931 also propounded the view that monotheism preceded polytheism (contrary to then popular / established belief). He made his point very clearly:
"In my opinion the history of the oldest civilization of man is a rapid decline from monotheism to extreme polytheism and widespread belief in evil spirits. It is in a very true sense the history of the fall of man."

See:

http://www.submission.info/perspectives/monotheism/monotheism_since_ancient_times.html


http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/monotheism-polytheism.html

So don't be to hasty in dismissing the idea that God has sent Messengers before to ancient peoples.

 

[AskTheFamily]

So don't be to hasty in dismissing the idea that God has sent Messengers before to ancient peoples.

Even if he sent them, when the books attributed to them are teaching polytheism and are totally corrupted, how can belief in their books be labelled belief in guidance of God? Their is no virtue in believing in such Messengers because was is attributed to them is falsehood...there is no way to deduce that once upon a time they taught truth...you don't know that. If the book remained and taught monotheism, they would not be believing in multiple deities would they now?

So the point was they didn't have a message and Messenger in the sense, they can know such a person is actually a Messenger of God and with a message. If the message is totally corrupted, then they no longer have a Messenger...because the Messenger message is distorted. The Arabs were said to be sent a warner while they didn't have a warner before.

وَمَا كُنْتَ بِجَانِبِ الطُّورِ إِذْ نَادَيْنَا وَلَٰكِنْ رَحْمَةً مِنْ رَبِّكَ لِتُنْذِرَ قَوْمًا مَا أَتَاهُمْ مِنْ نَذِيرٍ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{46}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Shakir 28:46] And you were not on this side of the mountain when We called, but a mercy from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no warner came before you, that they may be mindful.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 28:46] And thou was not beside the Mount when We did call; but (the knowledge of it is) a mercy from thy Lord that thou mayst warn a folk unto whom no warner came before thee, that haply they may give heed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Yusufali 28:46] Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) Tur when we called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee: in order that they may receive admonition.[/SIZE]

The point is they don't believe in 'Ayatallah' - and God will not guide them and will punish them. They don't have "Ayatallah" with them to believe in!

 

[Arthra]

Ask the family...wrote:

"If the message is totally corrupted, then they no longer have a Messenger...because the Messenger message is distorted.
The Arabs were said to be sent a warner while they didn't have a warner before."

My comment:

The Message can be corrupted by men..yes.. and that's why God sends a new Messenger to restore the original Message!

God will not leave man alone without guidance.

As to the Arabs who "didn't have a warner before":

If you had read the Qur'an as often as you say you did you would know about Salih andHud and Shu'ayb...

 

[AskTheFamily]

Ask the family...wrote:

"If the message is totally corrupted, then they no longer have a Messenger...because the Messenger message is distorted.
The Arabs were said to be sent a warner while they didn't have a warner before."

My comment:The Message can be corrupted by men..yes.. and that's why God sends a new Messenger to restore the original Message!

God will not leave man alone without guidance.

As to the Arabs who "didn't have a warner before":

If you had read the Qur'an as often as you say you didyou would know about Salih andHud and Shu'ayb...

The point I was making with that Arabs not having being sent a warner before is that since the message is no longer with them, they are said to have no warner sent to them. I'm referring to the people of that time...so the point I was making with that, is that there is people without Messengers if the message is totally distorted and they don't have a undistorted message with them, they are without Messengers. Otherwise having distorted message of Jews and Christians would mean they were sent a warner as well.

Anyways, all this is irrelevant to the fact, there existed people whom didn't have "Ayatallah" to believe in.

The verse states such people will never be guided and to them is a severe punishment.

This is aside from the fact everyone at one point doesn't believe in Ayatallah even if it was just when you were a child..so if God will not guide people in these conditions, how is anyone guided?

 

[razeontherock]

Even if he sent them, when the books attributed to them are teaching polytheism and are totally corrupted, how can belief in their books be labelled belief in guidance of God?

The Hopis are not the only native American Indians that already knew the Gospel when the first Europeans showed up to Evangelize them.

 

[Montalban]

The problem is that one person might put forward ANY evidence that native peoples had religious ideas - (no one denies this) to answer a specific challenge put to him about his assertion of previous messengers from his god

 

[Masihi]

Well it is possible to go to the Bible looking for errors, and looking for errors in God's Judgment. That's exactly what I did!

Ditto with me.

If the OP has already rejected islam, maybe he should move on to the Bible.