This generation

[Hammster]

If the entire OD is involving what happened up to 70 AD, thus nothing else, those words are totally usesless some 2000 years later, or anytime after that. There is nothing to gain from what Jesus said in the OD if He was only applying all of those things to the generation alive at the time.

The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
“So I will incite Egyptians against Egyptians;
And they will each fight against his brother and each against his neighbor,
City against city and kingdom against kingdom.
— Isaiah 19:1-2

Is this prophecy important?

I’m still wondering.

 

[rwb]

I’m still wondering.

How does the remaining prophesy of Isaiah 19 help to discern what the prophesy is pertaining to? For your consideration I offer the following passage:

Isaiah 19:17-19 (KJV) And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it. In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction. In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.

 

[Hammster]

How does the remaining prophesy of Isaiah 19 help to discern what the prophesy is pertaining to? For your consideration I offer the following passage:

Isaiah 19:17-19 (KJV) And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it. In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction. In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.

I don’t see how that addresses the point of my post.

 

[rwb]

I don’t see how that addresses the point of my post.

Perhaps this passage will help you see the timing of this prophesy:

Isaiah 19:23-25 (KJV) In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

 

[rwb]

I don’t see how that addresses the point of my post.

If you understand what the prophesy in Is 19 is referring to then you would understand that this prophesy containing both judgment and blessing is indeed important. Why? Because it, like all the prophets of Old point to the coming Day of the Lord, they long awaited for. That coming day when all that is written concerning the Messiah to come would be fulfilled.

 

[Hammster]

Perhaps this passage will help you see the timing of this prophesy:

Isaiah 19:23-25 (KJV) In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Do you understand the point of my post?

 

[RandyPNW]

If the entire OD is involving what happened up to 70 AD, thus nothing else, those words are totally usesless some 2000 years later, or anytime after that.

If Jesus was speaking to his own generation, the value of his words were for his own generation. The value in the synoptic Gospels, recording this Discourse for us, is that some of these things continue to have relevance far beyond Jesus' own generation.

To me it is clear that...
1) Jesus was speaking to his own generation. He used the word "you" in speaking to the Disciples about what their generation would experience.

2) The focus was on the destruction of the temple, which happened in their generation--in 70 AD.

3) Jesus led off the conversation by stating that the temple would be destroyed, namely Herod's temple. That can no longer be fulfilled, since Herod's temple no longer exists. So the focus of the conversation was on *when* this would take place. And Jesus said it would be in "this generation."

4) Jesus, in talking about the main subject, ie the destruction of the temple, was asked when this would happen. Jesus answered by stating signs that he called "birth pangs" would take place--items that would lead up to the destruction of the temple. These signs showed God's displeasure with Israel by bringing natural calamities. It showed Israel's sins, such as persecuting the righteous, for which they were to be judged. They showed armies on the march, indicating the Roman armies were going to be the ones to bring this judgment.

5) Jesus was also asked when the end of the age and his Coming in his Kingdom would take place. He indicated not that it would take place in his generation but only after a long exile that would begin in his own generation. That is, the temple would be destroyed, Israel exiled, and then he would return at the end of this long exile.

6) Jesus encouraged readiness for the Kingdom, not based on when it would happen exactly, but on the need to always be ready, since judgment in his generation would precede the end. Death implies the immediate prospect of eternal judgment. Nobody needs to wait until Christ comes to determine his fate.

So what is the relevance of these things for today? Since knowing the day of Christ's Return is irrelevant, we must *always be ready for the Kingdom* by living godly lives every day. And we should expect that what the early Jewish disciples of Jesus went through will happen to us, as well. The world will hate us. Backslidden Christian nations will hate us. But we are obligated to testify to the Gospel in every nation we find ourselves.

 

[keras]

[1] If Jesus was speaking to his own generation, the value of his words were for his own generation.

The value of Jesus' Words is for everyone from when He spoke them, until now and until He Returns.

[2] The focus was on the destruction of the temple, which happened in their generation--in 70 AD.

Only the first 2 verses apply to the Temple. All the rest is after that and they apply to our time.

3) Jesus led off the conversation by stating that the temple would be destroyed, namely Herod's temple. That can no longer be fulfilled, since Herod's temple no longer exists. So the focus of the conversation was on *when* this would take place. And Jesus said it would be in "this generation."

Circular reasoning, 40 years after the OD, the Temple was destroyed, but the rest of His prophecy is either still being fulfilled or awaits fulfilment.

[4] They showed armies on the march, indicating the Roman armies were going to be the ones to bring this judgment.

Jesus also said there would be cosmic signs. Not happened yet.

6) Jesus encouraged readiness for the Kingdom,

Yes, Christians throughout the age, have been told to be ready, it is our hope and our promise. It hasn't happened yet, but it will surely come. Are you ready now?

 

[Hammster]

Jesus also said there would be cosmic signs. Not happened yet.

What cosmic signs?

Yes, Christians throughout the age, have been told to be ready, it is our hope and our promise. It hasn't happened yet, but it will surely come. Are you ready now?

The kingdom is here. In fact, we are seated with Him on His throne.

 

[RandyPNW]

The value of Jesus' Words is for everyone from when He spoke them, until now and until He Returns.

The Bible is interesting that way. Isaiah may have been speaking to Babylon directly, but the record is preserved to benefit all who read it, long after the prophecy has been fulfilled. But I'm talking about who the Olivet Discourse specifically addressed--not about who all can benefit from the lessons contained in it.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples about the nation of Israel. That is who he was instructing specifically. Those who benefit much later in time, who were not being specifically addressed, may benefit from the moral and spiritual lessons.

I don't know how you can miss this? Jesus specifically spoke to his disciples and referred to them as "you." This isn't you or me, but the disciples of Jesus at that time.

And when Jesus spoke of the desolation to be experienced by Jerusalem in their generation, he referred to it as Israel's punishment. This wasn't the US, New Zealand, Australia, or the UK--this was Israel.

All nations who have become Christian may experience a parallel reality, and we, as Christians, may benefit from this message. But it was not directed at us, no.

Only the first 2 verses apply to the Temple. All the rest is after that and they apply to our time.

I find that absurd. A major prophecy like the destruction of the temple and Jewish religion, as well as their covenant with God, would not be brushed aside to talk exclusively about the Coming of the Son of Man, who will come on an unpredictable date!

It makes much more sense to me to see that Jesus directly answered the question, "When will this happen?" That is, when will the temple fall?

So Jesus gave a list of things to be experienced by his generation--things he called "birth pangs." They indicated Israel's sin and their deserving of the punishment to come. They experienced famine and earthquake, and heard of warfare and saw it approach.

Then they would see "all these things" in that very generation, particularly because they deserved it, having rejected their Messiah. To sandwich in information about the coming of Messiah was meant only to show the unpredictable nature of God's judgments so that people rely on godly living rather than on prognostications and worldly preparations.

Circular reasoning, 40 years after the OD, the Temple was destroyed, but the rest of His prophecy is either still being fulfilled or awaits fulfilment.

That isn't circular reasoning. Jesus said the main subject would be fulfilled, ie the birth pangs and the fall of Jerusalem. But he also said this would lead to a long Jewish punishment in exile. Where is the circular reasoning in that?

Jesus also said there would be cosmic signs. Not happened yet.

You're saying there were no heavenly signs back in the time of Jesus? You have no idea! Your statement is predicated upon a limb you've chosen to climb out on, the belief that "cosmic signs" translates into your solar flare fixation.

Don't get me wrong. There may be God-made or man-made disruptions of our electrical systems. But fixing ourselves on this as a major and necessary thing to prepare for as a matter of prophecy is your insertion, and not a biblical recipe for preparation for the Kingdom of God. Godly living is the main message here.

Yes, Christians throughout the age, have been told to be ready, it is our hope and our promise. It hasn't happened yet, but it will surely come. Are you ready now?

Don't be silly. You already know I'm a Christian. But you sadly think preparation is something less than spiritual preparation. You think it's some kind of intellectual awareness of prophecy being fulfilled, and taking note of the fact a great solar flare is coming, or a meteor, or an earthquake, or Armageddon itself. The only thing we need for salvation is life in Christ.

 

[keras]

What cosmic signs?

Luke 21:25-26 Portents will appear in the sun, moon and stars. On earth nations will stand helpless, not knowing which way to turn from the roar and surge of the sea. People will faint with terror at the all that is coming upon the world, for the celestial powers will be shaken.

The kingdom is here. In fact, we are seated with Him on His throne.

I wonder if He would mind if I asked for a cushion?
No; Your belief is wrong; the Kingdom is not here yet. Proved by how it is our task to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Luke 9:60

Jesus was speaking to his disciples about the nation of Israel.

The fundamental fact that you and most people miss; is the continuing existence of the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes, lost to our knowledge but not to God. Amos 9:9
Jesus made it clear that He had come to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24
Of the House of Judah, He said they would be thrown out of the Kingdom, Matthew 8:12 and the Kingdom will be given to those who have faith, trust and produce good works. Matthew 21:43

So then; Who was Jesus addressing the Olivet Discourse to?
The Jews, who rejected and killed Him and still reject Jesus today.
Or those people who believed in Him and kept the Commandments? The real Israelites of God, the Overcomers for God, who are the ones we see in each of the seven Churches of Revelation.

The all of Israel, that Paul mentions in Romans 11:26, refers to every faithful Christian person. Proved by how only a remnant of those Israelis known to us today; that is the Jews: will be saved. Romans 9:27

But you sadly think preparation is something less than spiritual preparation. You think it's some kind of intellectual awareness of prophecy being fulfilled, and taking note of the fact a great solar flare is coming, or a meteor, or an earthquake, or Armageddon itself. The only thing we need for salvation is life in Christ.

Its very obvious from all the prophesied warnings, that our preparation for what must come, should be much more than just spiritual.

Believe the Prophets: a solar flare is coming. It will change the world and set the scene for all the prophesied events, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus. Even secular people know it's coming and have made great preparations to survive it.
Basically, all we physically need is to have a place to shelter under for the one Day of extreme heat, earthquakes and violent storms. Isaiah 26:20-21

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

To elieve the Prophets: a solar flare is coming. It will change the world and set the scene for all the prophesied events, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus. Even secular people know it's coming and have made great preparations to survive it.
Basically, all we physically need is to have a place to shelter under for the one Day of extreme heat, earthquakes and violent storms. Isaiah 26:20-21

I think this supports your view. We are 3 years from the peak and already this is happening.

Something strange is already starting. I'm an amateur radio operator (Expert Class) so i study the solar activity because when sunspots start exceeding a certain level, long range HF communication opens up due to ionization of the atmosphere, and I can reach Australia with a simple dipole antenna and 100 watt transmitter. Thus I track solar activity for a reason. Check this out. Solar Cycle 25 we are in was forecast by NASA/NOAA to be much weaker than the previous 11 year cycle, but thus far this cycle is exceeding solar activity enough to throw their forecasting into question:

"May 10, 2022: Sunspot AR3006 is having an identity crisis. It is supposed to have a +/- magnetic field. Mostly it does. But deep inside the sunspot’s primary core, the polarity is opposite: -/+. Note the circled region in this magnetic map of the sunspot from NASA’s Solar Dynamics Observatory:

I cut out the image to save space but just click on the link below:

The mixture of magnetic polarities makes this sunspot interesting and dangerous. When opposite polarities bump together, it can light the fuse of magnetic reconnection–the explosive power source of solar flares. If AR3006 flares today, it will be geoeffective. The sunspot is directly facing Earth.

Update: The sunspot *did* flare today. An X1.5 class explosion on May 10th (1355 UT) caused a radio backout over the Atlantic Ocean and may have hurled a complicated CME toward Earth. Solar flare alerts: SMS Text"

Spaceweather.com

Also note this: Solar Cycle 25 Update | DX-World

Look at the charts of sunspots vs. the forecast. Given we are no where near the peak in Solar Cycle 25, such flares could get stronger as we approach the solar maximum.

It states "We are almost at double SFI (April ’21 to April ’22) and over three times SSN same period. "

SFI = Solar Flare Index (I think)
SSN = Sun Spot Number
CME = Coronal Mass Ejection

 

[Hammster]

Luke 21:25-26 Portents will appear in the sun, moon and stars. On earth nations will stand helpless, not knowing which way to turn from the roar and surge of the sea. People will faint with terror at the all that is coming upon the world, for the celestial powers will be shaken

Why do you think that didn’t happened?

No; Your belief is wrong; the Kingdom is not here yet. Proved by how it is our task to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Luke 9:60

We are proclaiming the kingdom that is here. Jesus is on the throne now.

 

[keras]

Why do you think that didn’t happened?

Because it is still yet to happen.
It will be the Sixth Seal, the still unfulfilled Lords Day of fiery wrath.

We are proclaiming the kingdom that is here. Jesus is on the throne now.

It is very obvious that Jesus does not rule the world now.
Your belief is actually disgusting as; if He was in control, He is doing a terrible job! Does He allow Putin to kill Ukrainian's?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Here is another example of the horrors in the world today. I post it for the Eschatology of Futurism not for any political reason.

 

[Hammster]

Because it is still yet to happen.
It will be the Sixth Seal, the still unfulfilled Lords Day of fiery wrath.

Or it actually has happened.

It is very obvious that Jesus does not rule the world now.
Your belief is actually disgusting as; if He was in control, He is doing a terrible job! Does He allow Putin to kill Ukrainian's?

see Matthew 28:18.

 

[Hammster]

Here is another example of the horrors in the world today. I post it for the Eschatology of Futurism not for any political reason.

That makes my point from another thread. No scripture, just current events. And the futurists can’t agree on where we are in history.

I’ll stick with scripture.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

We have the entire book of Revelation and the Olivet discourse as Scripture of the end. Only Chapters 1-3 of Revelation have occurred, and the global destruction and conditions in the Olivet discourse do not describe the small scale event of AD 70. Also Daniel and 2 Thessalonians back up a Futurist view.

The fact it fits current events while Preterism doesn't is just further evidence that there is more support for a Futurist view, but there is a wealth of Scripture that cannot be explained by AD70 and symbolizing most of Revelation. A literal approach is preferred ty a symbolic one where possible per our class in Hermeneutics.

The world is not getting better and the Gospel isn't taking control worldwide. That would be great if true, but that isn't what we see in the news worldwide.