This generation

[Hammster]

Then our disagreement is simply due to the difference between American English and New Zealand English.
I note that Jesus cursed the fig tree and said it would never again bear fruit. Matthew 21:19
The Jewish people did prosper and grow after 1948, but they have never produced fruit. That is; The fruit of the Spirit, it is the Christian peoples who have done that by their missionary efforts.
Proved by Matthew 21:43 The Kingdom will be taken away from you, [Jews] and given to a people who will bear the proper fruit.[Christians]

And none of this has anything to do with the OD. What did He say?


Then He told them a parable: “Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
— Luke 21:29-30

You are focusing on the fig tree blooming, and reading way more into than is there. You’ve built a whole theology around it. But He didn’t just say fig trees. He said all trees.

 

[Hammster]

"THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY"

That clears it up.

 

[rwb]

That clears it up.

Yes it does!!! For all who know how to define generation.

 

[claninja]

Yes it does!!! For all who know how to define generation.

Right “, like according to thayers:

“3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί)”

 

[Hammster]

Yes it does!!! For all who know how to define generation.

Except that’s not the argument. We aren’t arguing over the definition of the word.

 

[rwb]

Except that’s not the argument. We aren’t arguing over the definition of the word.

That's really too bad! Perhaps a better understanding of 'generation' usage throughout Scripture would aid your understanding of the generation that shall not pass away...

For instance here it defines 14 generation(s) that make up the generation of Christ. We wouldn't argue the only generation that counts is the one in which Christ lived???

Matthew 1:1 (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 1:17 (KJV) So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Here if we insist 'generation' means only those living at the time of Christ, it would mean that God will hold man guilty for the sins of their fathers??? The generation alive during the time of Christ are the "generation of vipers", but their fathers who are guilty of killing the prophets are not???

Matthew 23:30-33 (KJV) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Matthew 23:35-36 (KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Here Christ says that only those living in the generation of Christ is adulterous and sinful being ashamed of Christ and His words? Will we really limit this to a single generation living at the time of Christ??

Mark 8:38 (KJV) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

From generation to generation Christ's mercy is upon them that fear Him, but only one single generation (appx 40 yrs) is guilty of all the bloodshed upon the whole earth????

Luke 1:50 (KJV) And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

 

[Hammster]

That's really too bad! Perhaps a better understanding of 'generation' usage throughout Scripture would aid your understanding of the generation that shall not pass away...

For instance here it defines 14 generation(s) that make up the generation of Christ. We wouldn't argue the only generation that counts is the one in which Christ lived???

Matthew 1:1 (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 1:17 (KJV) So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Here if we insist 'generation' means only those living at the time of Christ, it would mean that God will hold man guilty for the sins of their fathers??? The generation alive during the time of Christ are the "generation of vipers", but their fathers who are guilty of killing the prophets are not???

Matthew 23:30-33 (KJV) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Matthew 23:35-36 (KJV) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Here Christ says that only those living in the generation of Christ is adulterous and sinful being ashamed of Christ and His words? Will we really limit this to a single generation living at the time of Christ??

Mark 8:38 (KJV) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

From generation to generation Christ's mercy is upon them that fear Him, but only one single generation (appx 40 yrs) is guilty of all the bloodshed upon the whole earth????

Luke 1:50 (KJV) And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

It’s not about the definition of “generation”. It’s about what Jesus meant by “this generation”.

 

[parousia70]

It's not clear to me what your point is,

My Point is even you don't believe His return will be "in like manner"as he left, as Only the apostles saw Him go, He Handed out no rewards or punishments at His ascension, and He did Not have an army of Ten thousands of Angels accompany Him in His ascension.. Clearly NOT "in Like manner" as you believe His return will be.

but the text never says these same disciples standing there would also see Him return in like manner. The text says--- shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Correct.
How did He go "into Heaven"?
"Hidden from their eyes by a cloud" (Acts 1:9)

 

[parousia70]

Christ never said, "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" when He ascended to heaven.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[parousia70]

What I don't do is spiritualize certain passages because that's the only way I can make them fit my doctrine.

When your doctrine requires you to take the words Soon, Shortly, At Hand, Near, About to take place, In a very little while and Without delay" and stretch, twist, elongate, metaphorize and spiritualize them away into 2 millennia and counting, yes, yes you do.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you understand that when you post what you think a verse says, it’s a commentary?

Of course I realize that, but in this case I'm talking about Commentaries by people everyone has heard of, such as Barnes, Matthew Henry, etc. I just did a search on Google for Bible Commentators and I'm not seeing my name listed among any of those listed. Maybe that means I'm not someone everyone has heard of before. I can live with that since I'm not trying to be famous or anything to begin with.

 

[DavidPT]

Correct.
How did He go "into Heaven"?
"Hidden from their eyes by a cloud" (Acts 1:9)

If in like manner involving His return, shouldn't this mean in reverse, so to speak? Before He left He was not hidden yet. After He began leaving He eventually became hidden and is still hidden to this day, meaning in regard to being bodily visible to the naked eye. The reverse of that would be that when He begins returning, at some point He will no longer be hidden. He will instead be bodily visible to those on the earth below. The same way He was still bodily visible to those on the earth at the time who initially witnessed this.

And how does that saying go? What goes up must come down. I can for sure see that applying here.

 

[Hammster]

Of course I realize that, but in this case I'm talking about Commentaries by people everyone has heard of, such as Barnes, Matthew Henry, etc. I just did a search on Google for Bible Commentators and I'm not seeing my name listed among any of those listed. Maybe that means I'm not someone everyone has heard of before. I can live with that since I'm not trying to be famous or anything to begin with.

Why is your commentary different? You said I should listen to you.

 

[DavidPT]

Why is your commentary different? You said I should listen to you.

Even though I don't agree with your position involving some of the OD, you still are in this for the same reason I am, and that others are who hold a position similar to mine, and not you only, other Preterists posting in this thread as well, that we all care about the truth, that we all want to agree with what Jesus said and meant in the OD, not disagree instead. Obviously, we all can't be interpreting the entire OD correctly if not all of us are coming to the same conclusions about what the text is meaning and involving. Someone has to be interpreting things incorrectly. Preterists insist is our side that is interpreting some of the OD incorrectly. Our side insists it is your side that is doing that.

If the entire OD is involving what happened up to 70 AD, thus nothing else, those words are totally usesless some 2000 years later, or anytime after that. There is nothing to gain from what Jesus said in the OD if He was only applying all of those things to the generation alive at the time. Your interprettion disregards future generations, as if, in the OD, Jesus couldn't care less about future generations, all He cared about was the generation He was living in at the time. If one interprets the OD in a partial Preterist manner rather than a full Preterist manner, or even a futurist manner, only the former has Jesus in the OD thinking about more than just the generation they were living in at the time, it has Him thinking about all generations, how some of these things will affect them. Meaning, such as false prophets out to deceive others, so on and so on.

 

[rwb]

When your doctrine requires you to take the words Soon, Shortly, At Hand, Near, About to take place, In a very little while and Without delay" and stretch, twist, elongate, metaphorize and spiritualize them away into 2 millennia and counting, yes, yes you do.

You'll have to be more specific. I'll use "at hand" to make a point, because its easier to stay on point in smaller bites.

Revelation 1:3 (KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

I agree there is no way for the time at hand to mean the second coming of Christ at the end of the age/era. That's why I believe the time at hand is the time of hearing the words of this prophecy. IOW the time for hearing the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I don't mean simply hearing the book of The Revelation. I mean the time at hand, meaning what is ready, or near is the Gospel of Christ being sent unto all the nations of the earth in the power of the Spirit. It's time to be about building the Kingdom of God as the Gospel goes unto all the nations of the world.

Revelation 22:10 (KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

So you can see with "at hand" there is no "stretch, twist, elongate, metaphorize and spiritualize them away into 2 millennia" in my understanding of "at hand".

That is why John is told in Rev 10:11 ..."Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings".

Same with "shortly". The Revelation of Jesus Christ is given to show Christ's servants (Christians) what will come to pass as the Gospel goes unto all the nations of the world.

Revelation 1:1 (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 22:6 (KJV) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

You didn't mention "quickly" but it too needs further explaining. In each usage of this word in the KJV, which is 13 verses, it means suddenly, without delay, unexpectedly.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
5035. ταχύ tachy (tachý)

ταχύ tachý, takh-oo' - neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb); shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily:—lightly, quickly.

As you can see "quickly" is not a reference to "time". So when Christ tells us "I come quickly" He is saying without delay, suddenly, by surprise to those who are not watching for His appearing. There is no indication of when He comes again, but only that He comes again, and we need to be ready or it will be at a time when we are not watching.

Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Re 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Re 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[rwb]

Even though I don't agree with your position involving some of the OD, you still are in this for the same reason I am, and that others are who hold a position similar to mine, and not you only, other Preterists posting in this thread as well, that we all care about the truth, that we all want to agree with what Jesus said and meant in the OD, not disagree instead. Obviously, we all can't be interpreting the entire OD correctly if not all of us are coming to the same conclusions about what the text is meaning and involving. Someone has to be interpreting things incorrectly. Preterists insist is our side that is interpreting some of the OD incorrectly. Our side insists it is your side that is doing that.

If the entire OD is involving what happened up to 70 AD, thus nothing else, those words are totally usesless some 2000 years later, or anytime after that. There is nothing to gain from what Jesus said in the OD if He was only applying all of those things to the generation alive at the time. Your interprettion disregards future generations, as if, in the OD, Jesus couldn't care less about future generations, all He cared about was the generation He was living in at the time. If one interprets the OD in a partial Preterist manner rather than a full Preterist manner, or even a futurist manner, only the former has Jesus in the OD thinking about more than just the generation they were living in at the time, it has Him thinking about all generations, how some of these things will affect them. Meaning, such as false prophets out to deceive others, so on and so on.

The mistake the Preterists (they are not alone) make is they appear to hold to a view that seems to believe that Christ's primary focus is the Jewish nation, ethnic Israel. It seems that have failed to understand that the primary focus of Christ is building the Kingdom of God through the universal church on earth as she is sent out with the Gospel message under the power of the Spirit. The Olivet Discourse was spoken by Christ to His disciples, who at that time in redemptive history happen to be Jews. But make no mistake, the Olivet Discourse is to the disciples of Christ, Christians no matter when they lived and died.

 

[DavidPT]

That clears it up.

How exactly does that clear anything up? That statement with the missing 'till' implies this generation never passes away.

 

[Hammster]

Even though I don't agree with your position involving some of the OD, you still are in this for the same reason I am, and that others are who hold a position similar to mine, and not you only, other Preterists posting in this thread as well, that we all care about the truth, that we all want to agree with what Jesus said and meant in the OD, not disagree instead. Obviously, we all can't be interpreting the entire OD correctly if not all of us are coming to the same conclusions about what the text is meaning and involving. Someone has to be interpreting things incorrectly. Preterists insist is our side that is interpreting some of the OD incorrectly. Our side insists it is your side that is doing that.

If the entire OD is involving what happened up to 70 AD, thus nothing else, those words are totally usesless some 2000 years later, or anytime after that. There is nothing to gain from what Jesus said in the OD if He was only applying all of those things to the generation alive at the time. Your interprettion disregards future generations, as if, in the OD, Jesus couldn't care less about future generations, all He cared about was the generation He was living in at the time. If one interprets the OD in a partial Preterist manner rather than a full Preterist manner, or even a futurist manner, only the former has Jesus in the OD thinking about more than just the generation they were living in at the time, it has Him thinking about all generations, how some of these things will affect them. Meaning, such as false prophets out to deceive others, so on and so on.

The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
“So I will incite Egyptians against Egyptians;
And they will each fight against his brother and each against his neighbor,
City against city and kingdom against kingdom.
— Isaiah 19:1-2

Is this prophecy important?

 

[Hammster]

The mistake the Preterists (they are not alone) make is they appear to hold to a view that seems to believe that Christ's primary focus is the Jewish nation, ethnic Israel. It seems that have failed to understand that the primary focus of Christ is building the Kingdom of God through the universal church on earth as she is sent out with the Gospel message under the power of the Spirit. The Olivet Discourse was spoken by Christ to His disciples, who at that time in redemptive history happen to be Jews. But make no mistake, the Olivet Discourse is to the disciples of Christ, Christians no matter when they lived and died.

That’s a straw man, plain and simple.

 

[Hammster]

How exactly does that clear anything up? That statement with the missing 'till' implies this generation never passes away.

I should have ended it with /sarcasm.