This generation

[rwb]

Why on earth would you assume something I’ve never said? The gospels were written for the church. That’s how we have to understand them.

Then why do you continue to argue the words are to the unbelieving Jews living in 70 AD because Christ says, "this generation"?

 

[Hammster]

You are making the same mistake that Dispies do.

Once again, a stunning rebuttal.

 

[Hammster]

Then why do you continue to argue the words are to the unbelieving Jews living in 70 AD because Christ says, "this generation"?

I don’t. I don’t know why you think I am.

 

[rwb]

I don’t. I don’t know why you think I am.

Your own words: "You are ignoring the second person plurals. Jesus was specifically addressing that generation. He even said so."

If you are not limiting "this generation" to unbelieving Jews living in the days of Christ, why do you continue to argue Christ was addressing "that generation", and go on to say all that Christ said MUST come to pass in that single generation?

 

[Hammster]

Your own words: "You are ignoring the second person plurals. Jesus was specifically addressing that generation. He even said so."

If you are not limiting "this generation" to unbelieving Jews living in the days of Christ, why do you continue to argue Christ was addressing "that generation", and go on to say all that Christ said MUST come to pass in that single generation?

Again, where have I said anything about unbelieving Jews?

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are ignoring the second person plurals.

Nope.

Jesus was specifically addressing that generation. He even said so.

But do you even UNDERSTAND what generation He talked about? That is a million-dollar question!

Say, can you even tell us what generation Christ talked about here:

1Pe 2:9-10
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

That means a God-determined "family," "kinfolk", or "generation" chosen to be "children" of light. Indeed, called out of the family or generation of darkness unto light. God is declaring that we are "now" of the family or chosen generation of Christ, just as the wicked are a generation or family of vipers...as indeed we once were part of the wicked or sinful generation. Read Mark 8:38 yourself. This is not talking about the so-called 40-year span generation like you thought! The wicked generation of family exists throughout time, from the blood from Abel to Christ will be required of it. Because it spans that time, even unto today. Yes, today!

Matthew 12:39

• "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

The evil generation that Christ speaks of is not simply the people of the era when Christ walked the Earth as you think. It is any children of the family of evil. They are all part of this ongoing sinful generation, the generation of evil, that Christ referred to! Period! And this is the same word [genea] used in Matthew 24. This generation or family of evil shall not pass until all be fulfilled! And true to His word, this generation hasn't passed and all is not yet fulfilled. These wicked children are still present in the world today, aren't they?

 

[Hammster]

Nope

Yep.

But do you even UNDERSTAND what generation He talked about? That is a million-dollar question!

Sure. He said it. “This generation”. The multitude of “you” in second person throughout chapters 23 had 24 affirm it.

Say, can you even tell us what generation Christ talked about here:

1Pe 2:9-10
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

That’s Peter, not Jesus. And he doesn’t say “this generation”.

That means a God-determined "family," "kinfolk", or "generation" chosen to be "children" of light. Indeed, called out of the family or generation of darkness unto light. God is declaring that we are "now" of the family or chosen generation of Christ, just as the wicked are a generation or family of vipers...as indeed we once were part of the wicked or sinful generation. Read Mark 8:38 yourself. This is not talking about a 40-year span generation like you thought! The wicked generation of family exists throughout time, from the blood from Abel to Christ will be required of it. Because it spans that time, even unto today. Yes, today!

Cool story. Not relevant to how Jesus used “this generation”.

• "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

The evil generation that Christ speaks of is not simply the people of the era when Christ walked the Earth as you think. It is any children of the family of evil. They are all part of this ongoing sinful generation, the generation of evil, that Christ referred to! Period! And this is the same word [genea] used in Matthew 24. This generation or family of evil shall not pass until all be fulfilled which is why they still exist today! And true to His word, this generation hasn't passed and all is not yet fulfilled. These wicked children are still present in the world today, hello

I already addressed this by showing the context and the parallel in Luke. It was specifically to His immediate audience.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Sure. He said it. “This generation”. The multitude of “you” in second person throughout chapters 23 had 24 affirm it.

That’s Peter, not Jesus. And he doesn’t say “this generation”.
Cool story. Not relevant to how Jesus used “this generation”.

Well, you still do not get it.

Spiritually, generation is a family relationship. Just as we are the posterity of Christ (having been born of the Spirit of God), the wicked are the children of the Devil, having the spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 5:6-9). Two distinct and opposing families since the blood of Abel. We are either the children of light, or we are the children of darkness. There is no other alternative (Ephesians 5:8; 1st Thessalonians 5:5). And the children of wickedness are a generation or family unit. This can be proven quite easily:

Luke 16:8

• "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

Christ is declaring that the family of the world is more prudent and wise in their interests and concerns of this life, than the family of the light are in their interests and concerns for the world to come. And we often see this as Christians not really concerned with any preparation for the hereafter, just their own talent hid away in the earth. Not very smart. Here again, this is the same word [genea]. The children of the family of darkness, are in their own way wiser than the children of the family of light "in that they prepared for "their" future. The word generation here means the posterity or family of the children.

So generation most certainly could not mean simply the people of that particular time period in this context. The well-oiled myth that you are promoting that generation must mean that era, or as Preterists like to claim it means, around a 30, 40, 50, 70-year timespan, is found to be quite biblically unsupportable.

I already addressed this by showing the context and the parallel in Luke. It was specifically to His immediate audience.

No, it does not. Not with the lack of spiritual discernment of what Christ talked about the generation. The "immediate audience" that you claimed that Christ spoke to, was indeed part of this ongoing generation or family of evil since the blood of Abel as it to continued until our days. The generation of evil obviously did not end in 70AD.

 

[Hammster]

Well, you still do not get it.

Spiritually, generation is a family relationship. Just as we are the posterity of Christ (having been born of the Spirit of God), the wicked are the children of the Devil, having the spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 5:6-9). Two distinct and opposing families since the blood of Abel. We are either the children of light, or we are the children of darkness. There is no other alternative (Ephesians 5:8; 1st Thessalonians 5:5). And the children of wickedness are a generation or family unit. This can be proven quite easily:

Luke 16:8

• "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

Christ is declaring that the family of the world is more prudent and wise in their interests and concerns of this life, than the family of the light are in their interests and concerns for the world to come. And we often see this as Christians not really concerned with any preparation for the hereafter, just their own talent hid away in the earth. Not very smart. Here again, this is the same word [genea]. The children of the family of darkness, are in their own way wiser than the children of the family of light "in that they prepared for "their" future. The word generation here means the posterity or family of the children.

So generation most certainly could not mean simply the people of that particular time period in this context. The well-oiled myth that you are promoting that generation must mean that era, or as Preterists like to claim it means, around a 30, 40, 50, 70-year timespan, is found to be quite biblically unsupportable.



No, it does not. Not with the lack of spiritual discernment of what Christ talked about the generation. The "immediate audience" that you claimed that Christ spoke to, was indeed part of this ongoing generation or family of evil since the blood of Abel as it to continued until our days. The generation of evil obviously did not end in 70AD.

The problem is that you seem to be focused on the word “generation” and you are ignoring the way it’s being used in the context of “this generation”. And like I’ve shown over and over (and over), all of the uses of “this generation” refer to that generation who He speaking to. To try to make it say anything other is to try to shoehorn it into an eschatological that’s not in view.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And like I’ve shown over and over (and over), all of the uses of “this generation” refer to that generation who He speaking to.

Well, I have your position biblically refuted over and over (and over).

To try to make it say anything other is to try to shoehorn it into an eschatological that’s not in view.

The Lord judge between false and true--and I am comfortable with that "because" I know that, unlike man, He judges righteously with a just balance.

 

[rwb]

Again, where have I said anything about unbelieving Jews?

The problem is that you seem to be focused on the word “generation” and you are ignoring the way it’s being used in the context of “this generation”. And like I’ve shown over and over (and over), all of the uses of “this generation” refer to that generation who He speaking to. To try to make it say anything other is to try to shoehorn it into an eschatological that’s not in view.

The problem is that you haven't understood what "this generation" is? Your doctrine has you ignoring every verse you have been shown that proves this generation means kind, or kindred, nature not time, and "this generation" did not pass away in 70 AD.

 

[DavidPT]

So to clarify, do you agree the following events happened/occurred/were done/took place in the disciples’ 1st century generation: persecution, famine, war, earthquakes, lawlessness, those falling away from the church, the gospel being preached to every creature under heaven, Jerusalem and the temple destroyed, the servants gathering the good and bad into the wedding feast, the son of man coming in the clouds (matthew 26:64)?

Some of those things you listed, such as falling away from the church, while that may have been true to a degree, though I don't know if it even was true to a degree, it certainly wasn't true on the scale Paul is meaning in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, though. He called it a great falling away. As to Him coming in the clouds in the first century, in any sense, I totally disagree with that.

He left in the clouds of heaven and returned to heaven in the clouds of heaven, which BTW, shows that literal clouds are obviously not meant, but He never came back to the earth in the clouds of heaven, in any sense. He does that in the end of this age, comes in the clouds of heaven and that in the first century that was not in the end of this age. Therefore, while it's on my mind, that is something that was never fulfilled in the first century, Him coming in the clouds of heaven in power and glory, and that Jesus said all must be fulfilled before this generation passes away, including that.

Which, BTW, as to coming in the clouds of heaven, as it relates to His ascension, and the fact Preterists argue that coming in the clouds of heaven involve judgment, but that God is not physically visible at the time, how does one apply any of that in the same manner to that of what is recorded in Daniel 7:13? No one in heaven actually literally saw Jesus arriving in the clouds of heaven, and that He was not visible at the time, and that He was returning to heaven coming in judgment upon those dwelling in heaven?

As can be seen, coming in the clouds of heaven can apply in different manners, because, obviously, you nor anyone else agrees that Daniel 7:13 is meaning in the same sense you take it to mean in other accounts involving coming in the clouds. Since Jesus could obviously be phyically seen coming in the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7:13, but not by anyone back on earth, but by those dwelling in heaven, the same can be true in Matthew 24:30, that He is visibly seen coming in the clouds of heaven, but this time by those back on earth.

What is the point of being seen coming in the clouds of heaven in power and great glory if no one literally sees this coming, that this coming is invisible to the naked eye? The Greek word for see in Matthew 24:30 is optanomai. You would think He would have used the Greek word eido instead, if the idea in Matthew 24:30 is that the coming is not literally visible to the naked eye. eido typically involves perceiving something rather than literally seeing this same something with the naked eye. optanomai, OTOH, oftentimes involves literally seeing something with the naked eye. Might not be the case every single time that word is used, but most of the time it is, more than it isn't.

Why do you believe that genea should mean a different word in Matthew 24, when in every other context is means contemporaries?

For one, because in the context Jesus said that in, in all 3 accounts, it was end of the age context, not first century context. Context matters. Context helps determine how something should be understood. If Jesus said this generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled, and that He said that in context involving the end of this age, how is it an example of using proper hermeneutics by applying what Jesus said, out of context, rather than in context? Of course though, it is apparently debatable, though it shouldn't be, as to whether Jesus said that in the end of age context or in first century context.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Once again, a stunning rebuttal.

Absolutely, and totally true.

 

[claninja]

Some of those things you listed, such as falling away from the church, while that may have been true to a degree, though I don't know if it even was true to a degree, it certainly wasn't true on the scale Paul is meaning in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, though. He called it a great falling away.

I would argue the degree of those leaving the church was there enough for John to claim it was the “last hour”.

1 john 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Which, BTW, as to coming in the clouds of heaven, as it relates to His ascension, and the fact Preterists argue that coming in the clouds of heaven involve judgment, but that God is not physically visible at the time, how does one apply any of that in the same manner to that of what is recorded in Daniel 7:13? No one in heaven actually literally saw Jesus arriving in the clouds of heaven, and that He was not visible at the time, and that He was returning to heaven coming in judgment upon those dwelling in heaven?

As can be seen, coming in the clouds of heaven can apply in different manners, because, obviously, you nor anyone else agrees that Daniel 7:13 is meaning in the same sense you take it to mean in other accounts involving coming in the clouds. Since Jesus could obviously be phyically seen coming in the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7:13, but not by anyone back on earth, but by those dwelling in heaven, the same can be true in Matthew 24:30, that He is visibly seen coming in the clouds of heaven, but this time by those back on earth.

What is the point of being seen coming in the clouds of heaven in power and great glory if no one literally sees this coming, that this coming is invisible to the naked eye? The Greek word for see in Matthew 24:30 is optanomai. You would think He would have used the Greek word eido instead, if the idea in Matthew 24:30 is that the coming is not literally visible to the naked eye. eido typically involves perceiving something rather than literally seeing this same something with the naked eye. optanomai, OTOH, oftentimes involves literally seeing something with the naked eye. Might not be the case every single time that word is used, but most of the time it is, more than it isn't.

the “son of man coming on the clouds” is a reference to Daniel 7:13. You can’t just separate that reference from Matthew 24:30 just because it doesn’t agree with your presupposition.

Jesus tells the Sanhedrin that from NOW on they would “see” Christ sitting at the right hand AND coming on the clouds.

matthew 26:64 You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerj and coming on the clouds of heaven.

matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

How did the 1st century Sanhedrin “see” Christ sitting at the right and coming on the cloud? Did they literally see this?

For one, because in the context Jesus said that in, in all 3 accounts, it was end of the age context, not first century context. Context matters. Context helps determine how something should be understood. If Jesus said this generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled, and that He said that in context involving the end of this age, how is it an example of using proper hermeneutics by applying what Jesus said, out of context, rather than in context? Of course though, it is apparently debatable, though it shouldn't be, as to whether Jesus said that in the end of age context or in first century context.

you are still having to change the definition of genea in order to fit your presupposition of what you believe “end of the age” means.

again, in every other context, it’s biblical use is of contemporaries.

 

[Hammster]

Well, I have your position biblically refuted over and over (and over).



The Lord judge between false and true--and I am comfortable with that "because" I know that, unlike man, He judges righteously with a just balance.

He does judge rightly. It’s your view that has been shown to be wrong.

 

[Hammster]

The problem is that you haven't understood what "this generation" is? Your doctrine has you ignoring every verse you have been shown that proves this generation means kind, or kindred, nature not time, and "this generation" did not pass away in 70 AD.

Again, focusing on the word “generation” and ignoring the pronoun “this” is taking things in context. Posting the definition of generation, and ignoring the pronoun, is ignoring the context.

 

[Hammster]

Absolutely, and totally true.

Maybe. But you certainly have shown it to be true.

 

[rwb]

I would argue the degree of those leaving the church was there enough for John to claim it was the “last hour”.

1 john 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

1 John 2:18-19 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The last - ἔσχατος éschatos, es'-khat-os

a superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time):—ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Peter 3:3 (KJV) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Jude 18 (KJV) How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2 Timothy 3:1 (KJV) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Both Peter & Jude use the same language, and speak of the whole Messianic or Gospel age/era. This same time is elsewhere likened to "last days".

the “son of man coming on the clouds” is a reference to Daniel 7:13. You can’t just separate that reference from Matthew 24:30 just because it doesn’t agree with your presupposition.

You need to read Dan 7:13 more carefully.

Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Here Christ is seen going to heaven, to the Ancient of days, it is not Christ returning to earth with the clouds of heaven on the last day.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus tells the Sanhedrin that from NOW on they would “see” Christ sitting at the right hand AND coming on the clouds.

matthew 26:64 You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerj and coming on the clouds of heaven.

matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

How did the 1st century Sanhedrin “see” Christ sitting at the right and coming on the cloud? Did they literally see this?

Christ did not say the Sanhedrin would "see" Christ sitting on the right hand of power. Because in Mt. 25:31 Christ says when He comes in glory with the angels, then He will sit upon the throne of His glory.

Matthew 26:64 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 25:31 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32-33 (KJV) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

When Christ says "hereafter" He is saying to the Sanhedrin it is because of this very hour that ye shall see the Son of man come and sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

At His coming on the last day the angels come also with a great sound and gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This did not happen in 70 AD.

 

[rwb]

claninja said: ↑
the “son of man coming on the clouds” is a reference to Daniel 7:13. You can’t just separate that reference from Matthew 24:30 just because it doesn’t agree with your presupposition.[/QUOTE]

Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Here Christ is seen going to heaven, to the Ancient of days, it is not Christ returning to earth with the clouds of heaven on the last day.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

claninja said:↑
Jesus tells the Sanhedrin that from NOW on they would “see” Christ sitting at the right hand AND coming on the clouds.
↑
matthew 26:64 You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerj and coming on the clouds of heaven.

matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

How did the 1st century Sanhedrin “see” Christ sitting at the right and coming on the cloud? Did they literally see this?

Christ did not say the Sanhedrin would "see" Christ sitting on the right hand of power. Because in Mt. 25:31 Christ says when He comes in glory with the angels, then He will sit upon the throne of His glory.

Matthew 26:64 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 25:31 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 25:32-33 (KJV) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

When Christ says "hereafter" He is saying to the Sanhedrin it is because of this very hour that ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

At His coming on the last day the angels come also with a great sound and gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This did not happen in 70 AD.

 

[Hammster]

Both Peter & Jude use the same language, and speak of the whole Messianic or Gospel age/era. This same time is elsewhere likened to "last days".

Yep. All speaking of the same thing, the last of that age. Just the 2 Timothy reference should prove that.