This generation

[Hammster]

I observe this Preterist fixation and it is gravely unhealthy.

Focusing on the kingdom?

mkay.

 

[Hammster]

What Jesus said in Matthew 24:34-39 lines up with what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:3-13. That's interpreting scripture with scripture. When He returns in the future, heaven and earth will be burned up and pass away. That's why He indicated in Matthew 24:37-39 that just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood in Noah's day "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man".

You can’t take one part of scripture out of context and then line it up with something you think fits, and say you are interpreting scripture with scripture. That’s still eisegesis.

 

[Hammster]

How do you twist a parable?

I don’t.

 

[Hammster]

Of the parable

Right. Which was the generation He was talking to. There’s no grammar that gets you out of this.

 

[Hammster]

That's still pretty sad because the glorious future return of Christ and the ushering in of the eternal new heavens and new earth where we will spend eternity with glorified immortal bodies is what we should be talking about much more than what happened in 70 AD. It seems that preterists like yourself have no excitement at all for the future glorious return of Jesus Christ along with everything it entails.

Well, there you go. You’ve disproved the OP.

 

[DavidPT]

Except that not one of you has actually dealt with the texts in the OP. I just keep hearing that the premise is wrong because of some other issue.

No one disputes most of those texts, that He was meaning those He was speaking to at the time. That doesn't prove He was still applying 'this generation' in that same manner in the OD as well. We have to consider what He said in the Discourse, when He said those things in relation to other things He said. He clearly said this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled, and that He said that after He said until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, for example. But we have already been over that aspect. You didn't accept anything I said the first time in regards to that,so that means you are still not going to accept anything in regards to that, that you are simply closed-minded about this subject involving this generation in the OD. If you are not closed-minded about it, you sure fooled me, in that case.

 

[Jamdoc]

Focusing on the kingdom?

mkay.

"7 mountain mandate" is not what Jesus meant by His kingdom.

 

[JosephZ]

That is absolutely false. The new covenant replaced the old covenant immediately upon Christ's death and resurrection. Once the new covenant was established by the blood of Christ there was no place for the old covenant anymore.

The Law was to remain until all is fulfilled.

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

Heaven and earth had to pass away before even a single letter of the Law.

This is a poor translation of the verse. First it says He made the first (old) covenant obsolete and then it says it is becoming obsolete? That makes no sense. Was it obsolete or not at that point? You can't tell from that translation of the verse. But, it was. Jesus made it obsolete with His shed blood on the cross.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

This is a better translation of the verse. The old covenant was not becoming obsolete at the time this was written, it WAS obsolete. Jesus nailed it to His cross.

Notice in the verse you quoted it said "is ready to vanish away" meaning it had not occurred just yet.

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete (The Old Covenant);

and what is obsolete and outdated (The Old Covenant);

WILL SOON DISAPPEAR. (It had not yet disappeared but soon would.)

I wrote the following in an earlier post, but here it is again.

The New Covenant didn't come into being instantly and the temple system was still in operation for Jewish believers from the period 30AD to 70AD (40 years). the Jews were born into the Law, therefore they had to continue to follow the Law. This did not apply to the gentiles as they were never under the Law.

God allowed the Jews who remained under the law time to repent, in hope that they would choose Christ.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Just as the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, so did those living in the 40 years from the time of the Resurrection to the destruction of the temple. Those who refused to believe in God’s Word failed to inherit His promise.

Jesus taught the continuation of offering of sacrifices at the temple.

Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. (Matthew 5:23-24)

The Christian believers in Jerusalem were eagerly observing the law.

When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. (Acts 21:17-20)

The ministry of Jesus and the twelve disciples was exclusively to the Jews.

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

And this mission to the Jews continued for several years after the resurrection of Jesus as can be seen in the Book of Acts.

"Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews." And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

Paul received the mystery of salvation through grace after meeting the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus where the risen Lord appeared to him.

"As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” (Acts 9:3-6)

“Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead” (Galatians 1:1)

“I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12)

The Law was still being taught by Jewish believers.

“Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’” (Acts 15:1)

“Some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

At first there was disagreement among the apostles between what Paul was teaching and what they were. This debate can be found in Acts 15 (The Council at Jerusalem), but in the end it was agreed that the Gentiles were free from the requirements of the of the Law for salvation. It was also decided that Paul and the others would minister to the gentiles and Peter and the apostles would continue their ministry among the Jews.

“The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ‘Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.’” (Acts 15:6-11)

The council came to agreement that both Jews and Gentiles are saved through the same process, through the grace of God, and Paul refers back to this debate in Galatians.

“On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised (gentiles), just as Peter had been to the circumcised(Jews). For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.” (Galatians 2:7-9)

As can be seen there was a gradual transformation between the New and the Old. The Old Covenant and New ran parallel to one another until the temple was destroyed.

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Hebrews 8:13)

The temple, the sacrificial system, and the priesthood, were done away in 70AD and the Jews could no longer look to them for redemption or atonement. From that day forward forgiveness and mercy could only be found through Jesus Christ and His work on the cross alone.

No, immediately after His death and resurrection forgiveness and mercy could only be found through Jesus Christ and His work on the cross alone. Why are you acting as if that was postponed until 70 AD?

This was true for the Gentiles as the Law never applied to them. It was postponed for the Jews because they were born into the Law and as a result of this, God gave the them time to believe upon Jesus as their savior and to come to repentance before casting judgement on them.

 

[Timtofly]

If you are appealing to this passage to support this view, it does not mean what you think it does.

The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9 ) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

Here's Matthew Henry with some fine scholarship on the subject:

"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Jdg. 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands."

The "captivity" that Christ "lead away captive" were His defeated enemies, and not the saved souls in Hades.

Resurrection is the ONLY vehicle by which the saved dead are RAISED from Hades into the Heights of Heaven. That does not happen, indeed CAN NOT HAPPEN, until 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 and Revelation 20:12-15 are FULFILLED.



Bodies of MANY Holy People coming out of their graves and appearing to many = Hades Vacated of ALL Holy People? That's a pretty generous reading into that passage...

I believe what Scripture teaches about it.
“Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:” Hebrews 11:35

Apparantly, according to the writer of Hebrews, there is a "better resurrection" than merely being physically re-animated, as this "better resurection" is being directly contrased to these women who actually received their dead raised to life.

This fits with the fact that in each of the recorded instances of physical "raisings" (except Jesus), we have no indication that those people went on to do anything but physically die again, like Lazarus.

Christ was the only one who was promised that His flesh would not see decay.

1 Corinthians 15 is quite clear that in the (better) "resurrection of the dead" the resurrection body is a spiritual one, and in none of the "raisings" you quoted were their bodies anything but the exact same mortal, physical bodies that they previously occupied.

Those who were once enemies of God are now brought nigh, by the Blood of Christ. Of course Jesus led those once enemies of God via Adam's sinful nature, and changed them from death into life.

 

[Timtofly]

Right. Which was the generation He was talking to. There’s no grammar that gets you out of this.

Then yes you do twist this parable. You remove it from it's parable status to a literal scientific statement.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Law was to remain until all is fulfilled.

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)

Heaven and earth had to pass away before even a single letter of the Law.


Notice in the verse you quoted it said "is ready to vanish away" meaning it had not occurred just yet.

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete (The Old Covenant);

and what is obsolete and outdated (The Old Covenant);

WILL SOON DISAPPEAR. (It had not yet disappeared but soon would.)

I wrote the following in an earlier post, but here it is again.

The New Covenant didn't come into being instantly and the temple system was still in operation for Jewish believers from the period 30AD to 70AD (40 years). the Jews were born into the Law, therefore they had to continue to follow the Law. This did not apply to the gentiles as they were never under the Law.

God allowed the Jews who remained under the law time to repent, in hope that they would choose Christ.

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Just as the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, so did those living in the 40 years from the time of the Resurrection to the destruction of the temple. Those who refused to believe in God’s Word failed to inherit His promise.

Jesus taught the continuation of offering of sacrifices at the temple.

Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. (Matthew 5:23-24)

The Christian believers in Jerusalem were eagerly observing the law.

When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. (Acts 21:17-20)

The ministry of Jesus and the twelve disciples was exclusively to the Jews.

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

And this mission to the Jews continued for several years after the resurrection of Jesus as can be seen in the Book of Acts.

"Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews." And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

Paul received the mystery of salvation through grace after meeting the resurrected Jesus on the road to Damascus where the risen Lord appeared to him.

"As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” (Acts 9:3-6)

“Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead” (Galatians 1:1)

“I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11-12)

The Law was still being taught by Jewish believers.

“Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’” (Acts 15:1)

“Some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

At first there was disagreement among the apostles between what Paul was teaching and what they were. This debate can be found in Acts 15 (The Council at Jerusalem), but in the end it was agreed that the Gentiles were free from the requirements of the of the Law for salvation. It was also decided that Paul and the others would minister to the gentiles and Peter and the apostles would continue their ministry among the Jews.

“The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ‘Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.’” (Acts 15:6-11)

The council came to agreement that both Jews and Gentiles are saved through the same process, through the grace of God, and Paul refers back to this debate in Galatians.

“On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised (gentiles), just as Peter had been to the circumcised(Jews). For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.” (Galatians 2:7-9)

As can be seen there was a gradual transformation between the New and the Old. The Old Covenant and New ran parallel to one another until the temple was destroyed.

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Hebrews 8:13)

The temple, the sacrificial system, and the priesthood, were done away in 70AD and the Jews could no longer look to them for redemption or atonement. From that day forward forgiveness and mercy could only be found through Jesus Christ and His work on the cross alone.

This was true for the Gentiles as the Law never applied to them. It was postponed for the Jews because they were born into the Law and as a result of this, God gave the them time to believe upon Jesus as their savior and to come to repentance before casting judgement on them.

I have already refuted this in detail yet you keep repeating these lame arguments.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You can’t take one part of scripture out of context and then line it up with something you think fits, and say you are interpreting scripture with scripture. That’s still eisegesis.

The opposite is the truth. It actually demolishes your thesis.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. You're correct, the quote should be attributed Samuel Lee rather than Eusebius.

I hope Preterists will stop falsely claiming Eusebius as their own because he did not advocate their error. Quite the opposite. He was a classic Amil.

 

[Jamdoc]

I hope Preterists will stop falsely claiming Eusebius as their own because he did not advocate their error. Quite the opposite. He was a classic Amil.

a lot of Amills have some strong elements of partial preterism, so it's a relatively easy jump to make. Full Preterists themselves have an amillennial view in a lot of ways, just without believing that yes, Jesus is still coming back someday. That's probably the biggest difference between an Amillennialist and a Full Preterist, is that an Amillennialist will still affirm that Jesus is physically returning. A full preterist will deny that, and may even deny a physical resurrection at all.
Amillennialists seem split as to whether they believe the Great Tribulation was AD70, or a future "Satan's Little Season". Which is generally the biggest difference between a straight up Partial Preterist and an Amillennialist, that an Amillennialist may still believe the Great Tribulation is in the future "Satan's Little Season", but they may not in which case they could probably align with Partial Preterists on a lot.

sometimes people will say they're Amillennial, believe the Great Tribulation was in AD70 and just believe in an instant global nuke 2nd coming with no preceding signs or events and I have to wonder.. what separates them from a Partial Preterist?

 

[Hammster]

No one disputes most of those texts, that He was meaning those He was speaking to at the time. That doesn't prove He was still applying 'this generation' in that same manner in the OD as well. We have to consider what He said in the Discourse, when He said those things in relation to other things He said. He clearly said this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled, and that He said that after He said until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, for example. But we have already been over that aspect. You didn't accept anything I said the first time in regards to that,so that means you are still not going to accept anything in regards to that, that you are simply closed-minded about this subject involving this generation in the OD. If you are not closed-minded about it, you sure fooled me, in that case.

I’m close-minded in the fact that I see no reason to think that Jesus meant anything other than those actual things would actually take place in the timeframe He actually said they would.

 

[Hammster]

"7 mountain mandate" is not what Jesus meant by His kingdom.

I have no idea what that is.

 

[Hammster]

Then yes you do twist this parable. You remove it from it's parable status to a literal scientific statement.

If you feel you need to lie about what I’ve said, I’m not sure why I should respond.

 

[Hammster]

The opposite is the truth. It actually demolishes your thesis.

Well, I guess it’s true that if you wrongly use scripture it does demolish my thesis.

 

[Jamdoc]

I have no idea what that is.

7 mountain mandate is a doctrine whereby people think that the Church is going to take control of the "7 mountains" of society and thus usher in the Kingdom of God, using men to do it. Basically the "evidence of fulfillment" of prophecy is "the kingdom is growing".
It is a man centered eschatological view, where instead of Jesus returning and establishing the Kingdom, the Kingdom was already established in the past, and it's the Church's responsibility to make it take over the world, rather than Christ.

 

[Hammster]

7 mountain mandate is a doctrine whereby people think that the Church is going to take control of the "7 mountains" of society and thus usher in the Kingdom of God, using men to do it. Basically the "evidence of fulfillment" of prophecy is "the kingdom is growing".
It is a man centered eschatological view, where instead of Jesus returning and establishing the Kingdom, the Kingdom was already established in the past, and it's the Church's responsibility to make it take over the world, rather than Christ.

Well, the kingdom is here now, and Christ is reigning. It started small (like a mustard seed) and will grow until it fills the earth (like the stone cut without hands).