This baptism saves

[Stinker]

1 Corinthians 12:13 (King James Version)


13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
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Even those who have been taught that a person must be submerged in water in order to be saved, believe that there is a simultaneous operation that takes place at that moment. That the Holy Spirit cannot transfer (Col.1:13) a person's soul into the Spiritual body where it is cleansed by Christ's blood (Eph.1:7) unless the exterior example of what is taking place inwardly is occurring.

I think the only way to prevent an avalanche of scriptures advocating both views, is to go to the beginning of New Testament water baptism. This way, we can see that the Holy Spirit is not dependent upon water in order to accomplish His mission.

In the beginning of His ministry, Jesus was water baptizing many people, as had been John the Baptist:



John 3:22-26 (New International Version)

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[a] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."



John 4:1-2 (New International Version)

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
------------------------------------------------------

Both Jesus and John administered the same kind of water baptism:


4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (Mk.1:4)
-----------------------------------------------------
The only difference being in whose name the candidate was baptized into. For the candidate shows whose disciple he/she is by in whose name they are baptized. This is why those baptized into John's name had to be re-baptized into Jesus' name. (Acts 19:1-5)


Therefore, the baptism that saves is that of the Holy Spirit at the instant of belief. (Gal.3:2)

 

[jmacvols]

1 Corinthians 12:13 (King James Version)


13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
------------------------------------------------------

Even those who have been taught that a person must be submerged in water in order to be saved, believe that there is a simultaneous operation that takes place at that moment. That the Holy Spirit cannot transfer (Col.1:13) a person's soul into the Spiritual body where it is cleansed by Christ's blood (Eph.1:7) unless the exterior example of what is taking place inwardly is occurring.

I think the only way to prevent an avalanche of scriptures advocating both views, is to go to the beginning of New Testament water baptism. This way, we can see that the Holy Spirit is not dependent upon water in order to accomplish His mission.

In the beginning of His ministry, Jesus was water baptizing many people, as had been John the Baptist:



John 3:22-26 (New International Version)

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[a] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."



John 4:1-2 (New International Version)

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
------------------------------------------------------

Both Jesus and John administered the same kind of water baptism:


4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (Mk.1:4)
-----------------------------------------------------
The only difference being in whose name the candidate was baptized into. For the candidate shows whose disciple he/she is by in whose name they are baptized. This is why those baptized into John's name had to be re-baptized into Jesus' name. (Acts 19:1-5)


Therefore, the baptism that saves is that of the Holy Spirit at the instant of belief. (Gal.3:2)

You did not prove that baptism with the Holy SPirit even exists today, or where we today are promised this baptism or where this baptism is said to remit sins, or where one was commanded to be baptized with this baptism. How about the example we have of the eunuch, he was water baptized, no mention of baptism with the Holy Spirit, so was the eunuch lost since he did not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit? But 1 Cor 12:13 is reference to water baptism:

1Cor 12:13---Spirit+++++++baptize>>>>>>>>body
Jn 3:5-------Spirit+++++++water>>>>>>>>>kingdom

Both verses teach the exact same thing, it takse the SPirit and water baptism to put one in the body/kingdom (church).


Acts 19:1-5, there is not enough information here to say that all those that were baptized with John's baptism had to be re-baptized.

 

[holdon]

1
Therefore, the baptism that saves is that of the Holy Spirit at the instant of belief. (Gal.3:2)

Faith saves. And water baptism saves. Two different things.

"eight souls, were saved through water: which figure also now saves you, even baptism"

 

[jmacvols]

Eph 2:8 ----faith>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21--baptism>>>>> saves

Since there is but one way to be saved and bible does not contradict itself, then the only conclusion is that a faith that includes baptism saves.

 

[holdon]

Eph 2:8 ----faith>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21--baptism>>>>> saves

Since there is but one way to be saved and bible does not contradict itself, then the only conclusion is that a faith that includes baptism saves.

Or there could be another conclusion: there are two different aspects of salvation here.
I believe this is the correct conclusion....

 

[jmacvols]

Or there could be another conclusion: there are two different aspects of salvation here.
I believe this is the correct conclusion....

What does "two different aspects of salvation" mean?

 

[Stinker]

You did not prove that baptism with the Holy SPirit even exists today, or where we today are promised this baptism or where this baptism is said to remit sins, or where one was commanded to be baptized with this baptism. How about the example we have of the eunuch, he was water baptized, no mention of baptism with the Holy Spirit, so was the eunuch lost since he did not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit? But 1 Cor 12:13 is reference to water baptism:

1Cor 12:13---Spirit+++++++baptize>>>>>>>>body
Jn 3:5-------Spirit+++++++water>>>>>>>>>kingdom

Both verses teach the exact same thing, it takse the SPirit and water baptism to put one in the body/kingdom (church).


Acts 19:1-5, there is not enough information here to say that all those that were baptized with John's baptism had to be re-baptized.

Exactly what I said that some believe! That those that believe that the new birth is a simultaineous operation consisting of The Holy Spirit on one side, and baptizer/baptizee + water, on the other. That the Holy Spirit cannot do His work without water.


Question: Since Jesus water baptized His disciples with the baptism of repentance unto the remision of sins (same as John the Baptist) is it anyone's understanding that all those people had to be re-baptized at or after Pentecost of (Acts 2)?

 

[beloved57]

Faith saves. And water baptism saves. Two different things.

"eight souls, were saved through water: which figure also now saves you, even baptism"

Neither faith nor water baptism saves a person from their sins..

But Jesus does matt1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[jmacvols]

Exactly what I said that some believe! That those that believe that the new birth is a simultaineous operation consisting of The Holy Spirit on one side, and baptizer/baptizee + water, on the other. That the Holy Spirit cannot do His work without water.


Question: Since Jesus water baptized His disciples with the baptism of repentance unto the remision of sins (same as John the Baptist) is it anyone's understanding that all those people had to be re-baptized at or after Pentecost of (Acts 2)?

In Mark 1:4 John preached that his baptism was for the remission of sins. Now if those baptized with John's baptism had to turn right around and be baptized on Pentecost also for the remission of sins, [Acts 2:38] that would mean their sins were never remitted the first time and John was not preaching the truth, no? I do not believe that those who had their sins remiited by Johns baptism, that thsoe remitted sins magically or mysteriously re-appeared and needed to be remitted on Pentecost. I do believe that even though John's baptism ended, the effects of it continued on, ie., even though it ended those sins continued to remain remitted. I believe the apostles were baptized with John's baptism, but we have no account of the apostles being re-baptized on or after Pentecost. I believe John's baptism remitted the apostles sins and their sins remained remitted even after John's baptism expired, hence they need not be re-baptized.

 

[jmacvols]

Neither faith nor water baptism saves a person from their sins..

But Jesus does matt1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus would save His people but how? Thru the means of faith/baptism.

 

[Stinker]

Originally Posted by Stinker
Exactly what I said that some believe! That those that believe that the new birth is a simultaineous operation consisting of The Holy Spirit on one side, and baptizer/baptizee + water, on the other. That the Holy Spirit cannot do His work without water.


Question: Since Jesus water baptized His disciples with the baptism of repentance unto the remision of sins (same as John the Baptist) is it anyone's understanding that all those people had to be re-baptized at or after Pentecost of (Acts 2)?

In Mark 1:4 John preached that his baptism was for the remission of sins. Now if those baptized with John's baptism had to turn right around and be baptized on Pentecost also for the remission of sins, [Acts 2:38] that would mean their sins were never remitted the first time and John was not preaching the truth, no? I do not believe that those who had their sins remiited by Johns baptism, that thsoe remitted sins magically or mysteriously re-appeared and needed to be remitted on Pentecost. I do believe that even though John's baptism ended, the effects of it continued on, ie., even though it ended those sins continued to remain remitted. I believe the apostles were baptized with John's baptism, but we have no account of the apostles being re-baptized on or after Pentecost. I believe John's baptism remitted the apostles sins and their sins remained remitted even after John's baptism expired, hence they need not be re-baptized.

Question: Jesus and John the Baptist administered the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins so what part does the word repentance play in that phrase according to your understanding?

 

[holdon]

What does "two different aspects of salvation" mean?

There is a salvation of the soul. This is through faith.

There is a safe place in this world: Christianity. If one confesses to be a follower of Christ, one renounces this world of whom Satan is the prince and through baptism joins Christ. During our lives we behave as Christians (we walk in newness of life). In baptism we ask (that is the correct term in 1 Pet 3:21) God for a good conscience as we declare that we are no longer part of that world that crucified our Lord. We seek so to speak asylum in His kingdom, to be no longer counted among Christ's enemies. This is all about taking a position in this world and has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul.

John's baptism was similar: they would distance themselves from a guilty people, confessing their sins.

Water baptism is fundamentally that: dying to the old world and walking in submission to the King of the new one.

 

[beloved57]

In Mark 1:4 John preached that his baptism was for the remission of sins. Now if those baptized with John's baptism had to turn right around and be baptized on Pentecost also for the remission of sins, [Acts 2:38]

for remission of sins in acts 2:38 means because of remission of sins, the sins were remitted by the blood of christ, not because of water baptism..

matt 26:

28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Strongs note:

For" (as used in Acts 2:38 "for the forgiveness...") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery", "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.

jm quit teaching your works salvation..

 

[Stinker]

for remission of sins in acts 2:38 means because of remission of sins, the sins were remitted by the blood of christ, not because of water baptism..

matt 26:

28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Strongs note:

For" (as used in Acts 2:38 "for the forgiveness...") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery", "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.

jm quit teaching your works salvation..

Well, as Christians, we have to be honest and consistant. The Koine Greek word for or unto (eis) is never translated as because of, it is translated as towards or into or in order to depending on the text and the context.

In the case of Mt.26:28 and Acts 2:38 it is to be understood as in order to. However, it still does not support water baptism salvation in either scripture. In Mt.26:28 Jesus is telling His disciples that He must shed His blood in order to have believer's souls cleansed of sins. In Acts 2:38 Peter is repeating what John the Baptist had been preaching. That people must repent of their sins and show that they have by undergoing water baptism...this time in Jesus' name (or authority) thus showing that they are His disciples. Thus it is still the water baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. It is followed up in Acts 3:19 (a parallel verse to Acts 2:38) "Repent ye therefore, and be converted (morally reformed- Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the N.T.), that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."

 

[Stinker]

Since we now have a more clear understanding of water baptism (having examined it from it's N.T. beginning) we see that the baptism that is sudden, silent, and invisable, is the baptism of the Holy Spirit translating (Col.1:13) a person's soul into the kingdom of God's Son where it is cleansed of sins (Eph.1:7) in the instant they come to the kind of belief commanded by the New Testament. This baptism is that of (1Cor.12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[Stinker]

Since we now have a more clear understanding of water baptism (having examined it from it's N.T. beginning) we see that the baptism that is sudden, silent, and invisable, is the baptism of the Holy Spirit translating (Col.1:13) a person's soul into the kingdom of God's Son where it is cleansed of sins (Eph.1:7) in the instant they come to the kind of belief commanded by the New Testament. This baptism is that of (1Cor.12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[beloved57]

Well, as Christians, we have to be honest and consistant. The Koine Greek word for or unto (eis) is never translated as because of, it is translated as towards or into or in order to depending on the text and the context.

In the case of Mt.26:28 and Acts 2:38 it is to be understood as in order to. However, it still does not support water baptism salvation in either scripture. In Mt.26:28 Jesus is telling His disciples that He must shed His blood in order to have believer's souls cleansed of sins. In Acts 2:38 Peter is repeating what John the Baptist had been preaching. That people must repent of their sins and show that they have by undergoing water baptism...this time in Jesus' name (or authority) thus showing that they are His disciples. Thus it is still the water baptism of repentance unto remission of sins. It is followed up in Acts 3:19 (a parallel verse to Acts 2:38) "Repent ye therefore, and be converted (morally reformed- Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the N.T.), that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."

eis in the context of acts 2 38 for the remission of sins would be better rendered=

Reference/Respect: with respect to, with reference to

The people whose heart were pricked showed evidence of repentance already, they showed a change of heart already..They were already forgiven of their sins, so water baptism was with respect to that. or with reference to that..That would be closely related to saying because of..

 

[jmacvols]

Originally Posted by Stinker
Exactly what I said that some believe! That those that believe that the new birth is a simultaineous operation consisting of The Holy Spirit on one side, and baptizer/baptizee + water, on the other. That the Holy Spirit cannot do His work without water.


Question: Since Jesus water baptized His disciples with the baptism of repentance unto the remision of sins (same as John the Baptist) is it anyone's understanding that all those people had to be re-baptized at or after Pentecost of (Acts 2)?





Question: Jesus and John the Baptist administered the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins so what part does the word repentance play in that phrase according to your understanding?

Change.

 

[jmacvols]

There is a salvation of the soul. This is through faith.

There is a safe place in this world: Christianity. If one confesses to be a follower of Christ, one renounces this world of whom Satan is the prince and through baptism joins Christ. During our lives we behave as Christians (we walk in newness of life). In baptism we ask (that is the correct term in 1 Pet 3:21) God for a good conscience as we declare that we are no longer part of that world that crucified our Lord. We seek so to speak asylum in His kingdom, to be no longer counted among Christ's enemies. This is all about taking a position in this world and has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul.

John's baptism was similar: they would distance themselves from a guilty people, confessing their sins.

Water baptism is fundamentally that: dying to the old world and walking in submission to the King of the new one.

I do not see where the bible makes this distinction between salvation of the soul and a "safe place". Being a Christian is salvation of the soul, one becomes a Christian by faith. You say the salvation of the soul is thru faith, yet faith includes baptism. Faith and baptism saves for faith includes baptism.

Eph 2:8---faith>>>>saved
1Pet 3:21-baptism>>saves

Salvation is salvation of the soul from an eternal hell, and there is but one way to be saved, so faith must include baptism. This safe place idea doesn't work.

 

[jmacvols]

for remission of sins in acts 2:38 means because of remission of sins, the sins were remitted by the blood of christ, not because of water baptism..

matt 26:

28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Strongs note:

For" (as used in Acts 2:38 "for the forgiveness...") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery", "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.

jm quit teaching your works salvation..

Above you're showing how "for" can mean "because" in the English language, this idea does not hold true for the Greek language..

"Eis" is found some 1500+ times and is never translated "because". There is a separate Greek word for "Because". You're simply trying to change the meaning of a word. 1 Tim 1:16 does one believe on Him because they already have everlasting life? No. Mt 26:28 did Jesus shed His blood because sins were already remitted? no.