Thinking about confession.

[Valletta]

This verse is not giving permission for earthy men to forgive sins, only God can forgive our sins. It is to teach people they have the assurance of forgivness by God if they comply with all of His teachings.

I understand you have a personal interpretations of the Bible. I absolutely disagree with your interpretation of this very clear and straightforward statement reported by John. Do you realize your interpretation is fallible?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I understand you have a personal interpretations of the Bible. I absolutely disagree with your interpretation of this very clear and straightforward statement reported by John. Do you realize your interpretation is fallible?

As is yours. It says nothing about catholic priests has authority to forgive sins.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
He is Jesus Christ, not an earthy priest.

Revelation 1:5
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood

This should be good news, the promise of scripture that there is no mediator between man and God except for Jesus Christ. We can go directly to Jesus. Amen!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I believe in the scriptures just the way they read.

One wishes that were true in the case of John 20:23

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This verse is not giving permission for earthy men to forgive sins, only God can forgive our sins.

We've read those words from other lips before.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Son, your sins are forgiven.' Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 'Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?' At once Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves; and he said to them, 'Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven", or to say, "Stand up and take your mat and walk"? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins'--he said to the paralytic-- 'I say to you, stand up, take your mat and go to your home.' And he stood up, and immediately took the mat and went out before all of them; so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, 'We have never seen anything like this!'​

Mark 2:5-12
So, when the Lord spoke to the apostles, was he confused about this doctrine that only God can forgive sins, did he forget the lesson that the Pharisees taught?

When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.' After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.' When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'​

John 20:19-23
It's altogether too easy to talk oneself out of receiving what Jesus says as he said it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We've read those words from other lips before.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Son, your sins are forgiven.' Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 'Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?' At once Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves; and he said to them, 'Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven", or to say, "Stand up and take your mat and walk"? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins'--he said to the paralytic-- 'I say to you, stand up, take your mat and go to your home.' And he stood up, and immediately took the mat and went out before all of them; so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, 'We have never seen anything like this!'​

Mark 2:5-12
So, when the Lord spoke to the apostles, was he confused about this doctrine that only God can forgive sins, did he forget the lesson that the Pharisees taught?

When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.' After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.' When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'​

John 20:19-23
It's altogether too east to talk oneself out of receiving what Jesus says as he said it.

There is no scripture in the entire bible that says humans can forgive sins, nothing you quoted gives this permission.

God’s Word tells us plainly we are to confess our sins to Jesus and we go directly to Him, there is no need for an earthy mediator, Jesus is our Mediator and High Priest who administers on our behalf, not an earthy priest. You are free to believe what you want, but my trust is in the power of Jesus Christ who tells us to go directly to Him. Amen!

 

[Valletta]

There is no scripture in the entire bible that says humans can forgive sins, nothing you quoted gives this permission.

God’s Word tells us plainly we are to confess our sins to Jesus and we go directly to Him, there is no need for an earthy mediator, Jesus is our Mediator and High Priest who administers on our behalf, not an earthy priest. You are free to believe what you want, but my trust is in the power of Jesus Christ who tells us to go directly to Him. Amen!

False. The words are clear, I understand you have been taught otherwise, but the interpretation you have been taught is fallible and in error.

 

[Valletta]

As is yours. It says nothing about catholic priests has authority to forgive sins.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
He is Jesus Christ, not an earthy priest.

Revelation 1:5
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood

This should be good news, the promise of scripture that there is no mediator between man and God except for Jesus Christ. We can go directly to Jesus. Amen!

Jesus referred to the bishops of the Catholic Church. Peter was he first: Mt 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There is no scripture in the entire bible that says humans can forgive sins

Have you seen the Lord's prayer before? I suppose one could quibble that "debts" are not "sins" but since the prayer is addressed to God and includes a petition for forgiveness it seems altogether beyond good sense to read it as if it is not a request for forgiveness of one's sins. And since the passage concludes with a lesson about forgiving sins it seems that your post's claim that there is no scripture that says human beings can forgive sins is incorrect.

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.​

Matthew 6:14-15

 

[SabbathBlessings]

False. The words are clear, I understand you have been taught otherwise, but the interpretation you have been taught is fallible and in error.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus referred to the bishops of the Catholic Church. Peter was he first: Mt 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is probably one of the most misunderstood scriptures in some denominations.

First of all Christ is the Rock, not Peter.

Deuteronomy 32:4​

“The Rock, His work is perfect, for all His ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is He.

Psalm 18:2​

The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

The Church is built on Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the power, not man, created beings.

Let’s read in context from Matthew 16:19 and what Christ is saying just before that also helps. “Simon Peter said, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God’, and Jesus said, ‘Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my Father which is in heaven’.

And He says, ‘You are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church”. He’s not talking about the declaration of Peter is the Rock upon which Jesus is going to build the church, the church is built on Jesus Christ.

‘And I will give you the keys of the kingdom’—now He’s not talking to Peter, He’s talking to all the disciples who are there in this dialogue. And He says, ‘I’m giving you the keys to the kingdom meaning, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. They had the freedom, in delivering the gospel to people, to make an eternal difference. What they did on earth would be seen in heaven. People who are…. Evil spirits and habits that were bound on earth would be bound for the world to come and it was saying that those who were loosed from those things would be loosed in the world to come.


This is the great commission from Jesus to the diciples:

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.


The Church of Jesus Christ is everything Jesus taught the focus is Jesus Christ, the power is Jesus Christ and according the scripture, there is no mediator between Christ and His church. To try to insert one when Jesus said otherwise I think is a big mistake.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Have you seen the Lord's prayer before? I suppose one could quibble that "debts" are not "sins" but since the prayer is addressed to God and includes a petition for forgiveness it seems altogether beyond good sense to read it as if it is not a request for forgiveness of one's sins. And since the passage concludes with a lesson about forgiving sins it seems that your post's claim that there is no scripture that says human beings can forgive sins is incorrect.

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.​

Matthew 6:14-15

We should forgive others of sins they make against us- sin is the transgression of God’s law. Meaning if someone wrongs you, forgive them. Not that people have the authority to forgive and cleanse of sins. That authority is Jesus Christ!

1 John 1:9 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are clearly told to confess our sins to Jesus and He will forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, something created beings can’t do.

We have free will, if you want to confess your sins to a priest, thats your free will. For me, I will confess my sins directly to Jesus Christ who told us we don’t need a Mediator we can go directly to Him and Jesus will cleanse us from our sins, something no human can do.

Looks like we will probably have to agree to disagree.

God bless.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Looks like we will probably have to agree to disagree.

I do not ask that you agree with me, my views are of no greater value than anyone else's. I hope you will agree with holy scripture; that is why I quoted scripture from the Lord's prayer, in the hope that you would acknowledge that human being do indeed forgive sins.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I do not ask that you agree with me, my views are of no greater value than anyone else's. I hope you will agree with holy scripture; that is why I quoted scripture from the Lord's prayer, in the hope that you would acknowledge that human being do indeed forgive sins.

I did acknowledge that and explained in context what it means- that we should forgive each other of our transgressions against one another, not that humans have the ability to forgive and cleanse of sins, that is something we are told to take to Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:9

If my friend steals from me, they committed a sin against me, and if they confess they stole from me, I should forgive them. Does that mean they don’t need to confess to Jesus over their sins, of course not. I do not have the power to cleanse them of their sins, I can just forgive what they did against me. They still need to confess what they did to Jesus so He can forgive and cleanse.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I did acknowledge that and explained in context what it means- that we should forgive each other of our transgressions against one another, not that humans have the ability to forgive and cleanse of sins, that is something we are told to take to Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:9

If my friend steals from me, they committed a sin against me, and if they confess they stole from me, I should forgive them. Does that mean they don’t need to confess to Jesus over their sins, of course not. I do not have the power to cleanse them of their sins, I can just forgive what they did against me. They still need to confess what they did to Jesus so He can forgive and cleanse.

Yes, indeed. One person can forgive another for whatever wrongs were done to them. And the wrong doer must seek God's grace and forgiveness for whatever offence was done to God in the wrong done. That is why confession and reconciliation play a role in a Christian's life. Sometimes guilt, fear, and numerous other things cause a Christian to need to hear the words "your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more" from one who can say it convincingly on God's behalf. The words do not, in themselves, grant forgiveness because that is a gift from God and no words are needed to give it, but the words ratify what God has done. They make it clear and sure to the penitent that God has truly heard their prayer, granted forgiveness, and cleansed their conscience of the burden of sins.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, indeed. One person can forgive another for whatever wrongs were done to them. And the wrong doer must seek God's grace and forgiveness for whatever offence was done to God in the wrong done. That is why confession and reconciliation play a role in a Christian's life. Sometimes guilt, fear, and numerous other things cause a Christian to need to hear the words "your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more" from one who can say it convincingly on God's behalf. The words do not, in themselves, grant forgiveness because that is a gift from God and no words are needed to give it, but the words ratify what God has done. They make it clear and sure to the penitent that God has truly heard their prayer, granted forgiveness, and cleansed their conscience of the burden of sins.

If we do not confess our sins to Jesus we will not be forgiven. If we wrong one another we should go to them, but we still need to confess to Jesus Christ directly though prayer as He is our Mediator and we are told to repent and confess to Him so we can be cleaned. Repentance means one has a changed heart and wants to turn from sin and walk with Him in obedience,

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If we do not confess our sins to Jesus we will not be forgiven. If we wrong one another we should go to them, but we still need to confess to Jesus Christ directly though prayer as He is our Mediator and we are told to repent and confess to Him so we can be cleaned. Repentance means one has a changed heart and wants to turn from sin and walk with Him in obedience,

Yes, all of this is part of the rite of reconciliation. One first asks God for forgiveness, approaches God with a contrite heart, and then confesses one's most burdensome sins to the priest who is present as Christ's representative (in the flesh) and who can speak the words of absolution (in words heard with one's ears). The priest is not a mediator between the penitent and God. The priest is present to speak the forgiveness of God in words that ears hear, his words are from the scriptures, his absolution is also from the scriptures, and the comfort that such words bring to a troubled person is the comfort that the scriptures bring to a troubled person when spoken.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, all of this is part of the rite of reconciliation. One first asks God for forgiveness, approaches God with a contrite heart, and then confesses one's most burdensome sins to the priest who is present as Christ's representative (in the flesh) and who can speak the words of absolution (in words heard with one's ears). The priest is not a mediator between the penitent and God. The priest is present to speak the forgiveness of God in words that ears hear, his words are from the scriptures, his absolution is also from the scriptures, and the comfort that such words bring to a troubled person is the comfort that the scriptures bring to a troubled person when spoken.

There is no scripture that says we are to confess our sins to a priest and they have the authority to forgive and cleanse in place of Jesus Christ. Scripture tells us to confess our sins to Jesus Christ so He can cleanse us. 1 John 1:9. No one is like God or can take the place of God- scripture actually warns us of one trying to be like God. I am not trying to be disrespectful of your beliefs, but I am not buying that the Catholic priest is Christ representative in the flesh, I think this is leading a lot of people away from the scriptures and true forgiveness of sins. Life is short, this life is just a test and those who follow His Word is a lamp to our feet Psalms 119:105 so we can be united with Jesus and where there will be no more sin once and for all. Our salvation is not worth risking not going to Jesus directly like He tells us plainly in scriptures.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There is no scripture that says we are to confess our sins to a priest and they have the authority to forgive and cleanse in place of Jesus Christ. Scripture tells us to confess our sins to Jesus Christ so He can cleanse us. 1 John 1:9. No one is like God or can take the place of God- scripture actually warns us of one trying to be like God. I am not buying that the Catholic priest is Christ in the flesh, I think this is leading a lot of people away from the scriptures and true forgiveness of sins. Life is short, this life is just a test and those who follow His Word is a lamp to our feet Psalms 119:105 so we can be united with Jesus and where there will be no more sin once and for all. Our salvation is not worth risking not going to Jesus directly like He tells us plainly in scriptures.

Your posts are much too certain that "no such scripture exists". You ought to think a little more carefully of what the scriptures say because each time you assert that no such scripture exists it turns out that many do, in fact, exist.

Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working.​

James 5:16​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

1 John 1:9​

You need not "buy" anything that the scriptures teach. It's always up to you to decide what you are willing to believe.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Your posts are much too certain that "no such scripture exists". You ought to think a little more carefully of what the scriptures say because each time you assert that no such scripture exists it turns out that many do, in fact, exist.

Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working.​

James 5:16​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

1 John 1:9​

You need not "buy" anything that the scriptures teach. It's always up to you to decide what you are willing to believe.

We are going over scripture that has already been discussed. Thinking about confession.

The He in 1 John 1:9 is Jesus Christ! We are told to confess our sins to Jesus Christ and He can cleanse us from all unrighteousness. There is no such scripture that says the RCC priests can cleanse sins.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

We are going over scripture that has already been discussed. Thinking about confession.

The He in 1 John 1:9 is Jesus Christ! We are told to confess our sins to Jesus Christ and He can cleanse us from all unrighteousness. There is no such scripture that says the RCC priests can cleanse sins.

Of course not. No Catholic says such a thing. That kind of inexact wording is typical of Protestant critiques of alleged Catholic beliefs. What Catholics teach is this:

THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION​

​

1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God's mercy for the offense committed against him, and are, at the same time, reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by their sins and which by charity, by example, and by prayer labors for their conversion."​

​

I. What is This Sacrament Called?​

​

1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus' call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.​

It is called the sacrament of Penance, since it consecrates the Christian sinner's personal and ecclesial steps of conversion, penance, and satisfaction.​

​

1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a "confession" - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.​

It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."6​

​

​

It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the love of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God."7 He who lives by God's merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord's call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."8​

​

II. Why a Sacrament of Reconciliation after Baptism?​

​

1425 "YOU were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."9 One must appreciate the magnitude of the gift God has given us in the sacraments of Christian initiation in order to grasp the degree to which sin is excluded for him who has "put on Christ."10 But the apostle John also says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."11 and the Lord himself taught us to pray: "Forgive us our trespasses,"12 linking our forgiveness of one another's offenses to the forgiveness of our sins that God will grant us.​

​

1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us "holy and without blemish," just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish."13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15​

​

III. The Conversion of the Baptized​

​

1427 Jesus calls to conversion. This call is an essential part of the proclamation of the kingdom: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."16 In the Church's preaching this call is addressed first to those who do not yet know Christ and his Gospel. Also, Baptism is the principal place for the first and fundamental conversion. It is by faith in the Gospel and by Baptism17 that one renounces evil and gains salvation, that is, the forgiveness of all sins and the gift of new life.​

​

1428 Christ's call to conversion continues to resound in the lives of Christians. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church who, "clasping sinners to her bosom, (is) at once holy and always in need of purification, (and) follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."18 This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work. It is the movement of a "contrite heart," drawn and moved by grace to respond to the merciful love of God who loved us first.19​

​

1429 St. Peter's conversion after he had denied his master three times bears witness to this. Jesus' look of infinite mercy drew tears of repentance from Peter and, after the Lord's resurrection, a threefold affirmation of love for him.20 The second conversion also has a communitarian dimension, as is clear in the Lord's call to a whole Church: "Repent!"21​

​

St. Ambrose says of the two conversions that, in the Church, "there are water and tears: the water of Baptism and the tears of repentance."22​

​

IV. Interior Penance​

​

1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.23​

​

1431 Interior repentance is a radical reorientation of our whole life, a return, a conversion to God with all our heart, an end of sin, a turning away from evil, with repugnance toward the evil actions we have committed. At the same time it entails the desire and resolution to change one's life, with hope in God's mercy and trust in the help of his grace. This conversion of heart is accompanied by a salutary pain and sadness which the Fathers called animi cruciatus (affliction of spirit) and compunctio cordis (repentance of heart).24​

​

1432 The human heart is heavy and hardened. God must give man a new heart.25 Conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: "Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!"26 God gives us the strength to begin anew. It is in discovering the greatness of God's love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him. the human heart is converted by looking upon him whom our sins have pierced:27​

​

Let us fix our eyes on Christ's blood and understand how precious it is to his Father, for, poured out for our salvation it has brought to the whole world the grace of repentance.​

​

1433 Since Easter, the Holy Spirit has proved "the world wrong about sin,"29 i.e., proved that the world has not believed in him whom the Father has sent. But this same Spirit who brings sin to light is also the Consoler who gives the human heart grace for repentance and conversion.30​

​

There's more, if you have an interest in reading it then click this link​