Thinking about confession.

[Xeno.of.athens]

So you are saying that forgiveness can only be obtained by confessing to a priest? And you're wondering why I see a problem in the teaching that one has to go through a man to obtain forgiveness from God?

No, I said exactly the opposite; neither Catholic nor Orthodox teach that one must confess in order to be forgiven by God.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Interesting opinion: tell me, if you are willing, why did Jesus say, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Those whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and those whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." [John 20:23]?

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Matthew 6:12

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Matthew 6:12

Matthew 6:12 implies that one's own sins will be forgiven according to the forgiveness one shows to others.
John 20:23 implies that the apostles were commissioned to forgive other people's sins or to refuse forgiveness.
The passages teach different things.

 

[Ceallaigh]

No, I said exactly the opposite; neither Catholic nor Orthodox teach that one must confess in order to be forgiven by God.

Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote then or I misunderstood your reply. Because I said: "Just as long as it's not being said forgiveness can only be obtained by confessing to a priest." To which you replied: "Why do you fear such a thing?".

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote then or I misunderstood your reply. Because I said: "Just as long as it's not being said forgiveness can only be obtained by confessing to a priest." To which you replied: "Why do you fear such a thing?".

My question was followed by an explanation, namely, "It is not Catholic teaching, nor Orthodox as far as I am aware." That is to say, neither Catholic nor Orthodox Church teaches that "forgiveness can only be obtained by confessing to a priest."

 

[Ceallaigh]

My question was followed by an explanation, namely, "It is not Catholic teaching, nor Orthodox as far as I am aware." That is to say, neither Catholic nor Orthodox Church teaches that "forgiveness can only be obtained by confessing to a priest."

Oh dear, yes I totally misunderstood you, even though what you said was perfectly clear.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I find this confusing:

Jesus says: "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:23.

However Jesus also says: “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:14-15

 

[BobRyan]

According to what looked up the current common practice of confessing to a priest, came about centuries after the church was established. Maybe as late as the 11th century.

Yeah - you don't find it in the NT such that one person confesses a sin to another that is not something the two of them already know about and is between them... or is known to the church - as a sin done against the church.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

According to what looked up the current common practice of confessing to a priest, came about centuries after the church was established. Maybe as late as the 11th century.

We see an earlier form of semi-private confession as early as the 4th - 6th century in this quote of the Desert Fathers, the early monastics: If impure thoughts trouble you, do not hide them, but tell them at once to your spiritual father and condemn them. The more a person conceals his thoughts, the more they multiply and gain strength. But an evil thought, when revealed, is immediately destroyed. If you hide things, they have great power over you, but if you could only speak of them before God, in the presence of another, then they will often wither away, and lose their power.

So in Eastern Orthodoxy, we confess to God, kneeling before an icon of Christ, before the priest who serves as a witness. The Greek Orthodox absolution reads, "Let us pray to the Lord. O Lord and god of the salvation of Your servants, gracious, and merciful, and long-suffering, Who is grieved at our misdeeds, Who desires not the death of the sinner, but rather that he should be converted and live, have mercy now upon Your servant (handmaid) N.; grant him (her) true penitence, and the pardon and forgiveness of sins; remit to him (her) all transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary; reconcile and unite him (her) with Your Holy Church through Jesus Christ Our Lord, with Whom be power and glory ascribed unto You, now and ever, and to ages of ages. Amen.”

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yeah - you don't find it in the NT such that one person confesses a sin to another that is not something the two of them already know about and is between them... or is known to the church - as a sin done against the church.

I don't really have a problem with it per James 5:16. The only thing that concerned me was if it was considered mandatory by the RCC, which the OP says it isn't.

 

[Ceallaigh]

We see an earlier form of semi-private confession as early as the 4th - 6th century in this quote of the Desert Fathers, the early monastics: If impure thoughts trouble you, do not hide them, but tell them at once to your spiritual father and condemn them. The more a person conceals his thoughts, the more they multiply and gain strength. But an evil thought, when revealed, is immediately destroyed. If you hide things, they have great power over you, but if you could only speak of them before God, in the presence of another, then they will often wither away, and lose their power.

So in Eastern Orthodoxy, we confess to God, kneeling before an icon of Christ, before the priest who serves as a witness. The Greek Orthodox absolution reads, "Let us pray to the Lord. O Lord and god of the salvation of Your servants, gracious, and merciful, and long-suffering, Who is grieved at our misdeeds, Who desires not the death of the sinner, but rather that he should be converted and live, have mercy now upon Your servant (handmaid) N.; grant him (her) true penitence, and the pardon and forgiveness of sins; remit to him (her) all transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary; reconcile and unite him (her) with Your Holy Church through Jesus Christ Our Lord, with Whom be power and glory ascribed unto You, now and ever, and to ages of ages. Amen.”

That all sounds alright to me.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

That all sounds alright to me.

Depending on the ethnicity of the parish, frequency of confession varies. Russians typically will have confession the day before or the morning that they intend to take communion. Other jurisdictions will confess during the various fasts of the church year, Lent, Apostles Fast (late June), Dormition (first two weeks of August) or Advent (started yesterday for most Orthodox in the US). Personally, I've done both. As a chanter, finding the time can be a bit of a challenge at times. A short confession is just the sacrament, while a longer confession will be spent talking to the confessor priest who can offer advice or
guidance. It might be spending more time in prayer or coming to additional services if possible. This is a picture of the absolution. The priest places his stole over the head of the person while reading a litany of prayers. It is done in front of the iconostasis or in front of a lectern with an icon of Christ. It is considered a private confession so if there are people in the church, they are expected not to interrupt or try to listen in.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I believe the actual practice of going into a chamber with a priest to confess one's sins to, and receive orders of penance to perform and absolution being granted, wasn't put into practice until around the 10th or 11th century.

Early practice[edit]​

In the middle of the 2nd century, the idea of one reconciliation/penance after baptism for the serious sins of apostasy, murder, and adultery is suggested in the book of visions, The Shepherd of Hermas.[6] The "episkopos" (bishop) was the main liturgical leader in a local community.[7] He declared that God had forgiven the sins when it was clear that there was repentance, evidenced by the performance of some penance,[7] and the penitent was readmitted to the community.[8] Since reconciliation with the church could be granted only once after baptism, baptism was often postponed until late in life and reconciliation to one's deathbed.[9] The need to confess to a priest is traced to Basil the Great[citation needed]. It was seen that God granted forgiveness through the priest. Before the fourth century confession and penitential discipline were a public affair “since all sin is sin not only against God but against our neighbor, against the community.”[10]: 140–41  By the time of Cyprian of Carthage, confession itself was no longer public,[11] although the practice of public penance for serious sin remained.

 

[Valletta]

Jesus is not giving man the authority to forgive sins. It is to teach people they have the assurance of forgivness by God if they comply with all of His teachings. The diciples were commissioned to observe everything Jesus commanded of them. To place all this power on humans when we are told we go directly to Jesus as He is the only Mediator between God and man. This is not my opinion it is the teaching of the Holy Spirit. 1 Timothy 2:5. This should be good news that we have such a righteous Savior that allows us to go directly to Him and to be guided by His Spirit and gives us His Holy Scriptures, that if we follow His Word He is a shield to us and a lamp to our path we won’t be deceived. Proverbs 30:5-6. Psalms 119:105

The forgiveness does come from Jesus, just like when a person was healed through the Apostles that healing came from God. Jesus gave us this sacrament of confession so that we can go to Jesus through the sacrament of confession and know that are sins are forgiven or not, forgiven or retained. The beauty of the sacrament can be seen, without it a person could pretty much commit any sin and then say forgive me God. In confession you have to say your sins before another person, that is confront your sin and show repentance.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The forgiveness does come from Jesus, just like when a person was healed through the Apostles that healing came from God. Jesus gave us this sacrament of confession so that we can go to Jesus through the sacrament of confession and know that are sins are forgiven or not, forgiven or retained. The beauty of the sacrament can be seen, without it a person could pretty much commit any sin and then say forgive me God. In confession you have to say your sins before another person, that is confront your sin and show repentance.

The scripture says we can do this without having to go through a man. There is no other mediator needed between God and Jesus, we can go directly to Him for the forgiveness of sins when we confess to Him. Amen!

 

[Valletta]

The scripture says we can do this without having to go through a man. There is no other mediator needed between God and Jesus, we can go directly to Him for the forgiveness of sins when we confess to Him. Amen!

 

[Valletta]

That is your interpretation rather than what Scripture actually tells us. Jesus is our one mediator, Jesus did not NEED the Apostles to forgive sins or to preach the Gospel. Both could have been done without the Apostles. The Holy Spirit does not NEED Holy Scripture to give us the Gospel, but does indeed sometimes work through the written Word.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That is your interpretation rather than what Scripture actually tells us. Jesus is our one mediator, Jesus did not NEED the Apostles to forgive sins or to preach the Gospel. Both could have been done without the Apostles. The Holy Spirit does not NEED Holy Scripture to give us the Gospel, but does indeed sometimes work through the written Word.

I believe in the scriptures just the way they read. Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant and there is no one else between God and man except for our Savior, Jesus Christ. The apostles did not forgive sins they were commissioned to spread the gospel -the good news that Jesus died for our sins when we repent and confess our sins to Him and turn from sin and in doing so we can have eternal life. There is no scriptures that links the Catholic Church to the apostles in scripture.

If we believe in Jesus we need to believe His Word, we go directly to Him when we confess and only He is able to forgive us and He is our Mediator and there is no man that we need to go to that is between us and God, we all have a direct connection to Jesus when we pray and confess our sins to Him 1 John 1:9, if you want to believe the scriptures. I place my trust in God’s Word only and scripture tells us not to add or subtract to His commandments or to change anything in scripture. If we do that God’s Word is a light to our path and a shield to us so we won’t be deceived.

 

[Valletta]

I believe in the scriptures just the way they read. Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant and there is no one else between God and man except for our Savior, Jesus Christ. The apostles did not forgive sins they were commissioned to spread the gospel -the good news that Jesus died for our sins when we repent and confess our sins to Him and turn from sin and in doing so we can have eternal life. There is no scriptures that links the Catholic Church to the apostles in scripture.

If we believe in Jesus we need to believe His Word, we go directly to Him when we confess and only He is able to forgive us and He is our Mediator and there is no man that we need to go to that is between us and God, we all have a direct connection to Jesus when we pray and confess our sins to Him 1 John 1:9, if you want to believe the scriptures. I place my trust in God’s Word only and scripture tells us not to add or subtract to His commandments or to change anything in scripture. If we do that God’s Word is a light to our path and a shield to us so we won’t be deceived.

Catholics believe that the Bible is the Word of God. We believe in ALL of the Bible.

John 20:23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Catholics believe that the Bible is the Word of God. We believe in ALL of the Bible.

John 20:23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.

This verse is not giving permission for earthy men to forgive sins, only God can forgive our sins. It is to teach people they have the assurance of forgivness by God if they comply with all of His teachings.