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Think There's No Link Between Darwinism and Nazism?

LightHorseman

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Really? The impression that I got from Expelled was that it was comparing the actions of the scientific community to a totalitarian regime. I don't remember anything about a link between Darwinism and the holocaust being used as an actual argument against ToE. Besides, wasn't the focus of the movie about the actions taken against proponents of intelligent design?
I havn't seen the movie, but are you suggesting that the scientific community is taking action against people who have conducted properly constructed experiements or observation that unambiguously point to inteligent design?

Or are you suggesting that IDers are crying foul because their pet theories are not given the creedence they would like, despite the fact that they are unsupported by empirical evidence?

One is a gross injustice, the other is tough bikkies
 
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quatona

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Of course that depends on why we are asking the question in the first place. For me, it's pretty clear. The roots of the holocaust should be understood so that we can avoid similar tragedies in the future.
And for showing that X is the root for genocide you would have to do more than just showing that someone justified his genocide by X.


If through Darwinism one can reasonably draw the conclusion that genetically 'inferior' individuals must die for the betterment of the human race, then there would be a logical implication between Darwinism and genocide.
You can´t draw that conclusion from Darwinism reasonably.



As I stated earlier, yes, Christianity was a factor, but it takes alot of twisting to get from "love your neighbor as yourself" to "destroy inferior races for the good of humanity". In this case there is no logical implication between the two.
There isn´t a logical implication in the case of Darwin´s theory, either.
Darwin´s theory describes natural processes, and any prescriptive conclusion necessarily depends on your ethical convictions. As reasonably (or unreasonably, for that matter) as you can conclude from Darwin´s theory that inferiour races need to be destroyed for the good of humanity you can conclude the very opposite.

I think it's fair to say that a rational viewpoint that leads to genocide is much more dangerous than one that is irrational.
And you would have to show that Hitler´s conclusion was rational or more rational than any other prescriptive conclusions anyone could possibly draw from a descriptive theory.
But so what and why does that matter? It's obvious. You can't avert or fix a problem without first staring it in the face.
You have to discern the problem correctly, in the first place.



Well, since the modern era usually refers to the period of history beginning with the Enlightenment, why is that a problem?
Take a look at all the thought systems that have come up since the Enlightenment, and you will see that "Social Darwinism" is not a prominent one.
 
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WorldIsMine

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I will go on record as saying that nothing the Nazis did was wrong and nothing the Nazis did was right, but much of what they did was ignorant and a cover-up for power-grabbing (as government always is). No one who understands evolutionary theory in general and the reality of human genetics and anthropology could possibly buy into the racialist theories.
To make another point: The Greeks though they were inherently ethnically and culturally superior to everyone else in the world. Were they influenced by 'Darwinism'? Cultural conformism and irrational jingoism are products of tribalistic stupidity, to link them to a scientific doctrine which more than anything refutes such theories is ridiculous.
 
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Sojourner<><

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You can´t draw that conclusion from Darwinism reasonably.

There isn´t a logical implication in the case of Darwin´s theory, either.
Darwin´s theory describes natural processes, and any prescriptive conclusion necessarily depends on your ethical convictions. As reasonably (or unreasonably, for that matter) as you can conclude from Darwin´s theory that inferiour races need to be destroyed for the good of humanity you can conclude the very opposite.

Fair enough. I'll list my own conclusions beginning with Darwinism, and if you can show them to be irrational, I'll rest my case.

Beginning with Darwinism itself, it proposes that species adapt over time through small changes in their genetic pool through propagation, mutation and selection of the fittest. It also proposes that it is not necessarily the strongest that survive, but those that are most responsive to change. Am I right about all of this so far?

If that is true, then it follows that any species which is to survive must possess some trait that aids its ability to survive in the face of drastic change, and that it is drastic change which enables these traits to become predominant within a population by eliminating a substantial number of individuals that do not possess it.

It is very reasonable to assume through human experience that within our species, traits such as intelligence, good eye sight, hearing and strength, etc., are traits that help us to adapt to change in our environments. But if we, through our own inventive ways, sufficiently conquer nature and minimize the effects of these drastic changes, then the very mechanism which has aided in the development of our 'superior' traits will itself be subverted if we continue in our ways. In fact it can be observed that through the practice of modern medicine, the lives of countless individuals are preserved where they would have died if left unattended. In this case we should expect some of these traits to degenerate over time at the very least.

So then, if we are to avoid the degeneration of our abilities to survive, the reintroduction of adverse circumstances which cause the deaths of the 'unfit' could be a solution to this problem.

Granted, this in no way defines exactly what it is to be 'unfit' or what a society should do, but I believe it sufficiently backs up my point that there is a logical implication between Darwinism and genocide.

And you would have to show that Hitler´s conclusion was rational or more rational than any other prescriptive conclusions anyone could possibly draw from a descriptive theory.

Not necessarily. If for some odd reason, Aunt Bee rose to power in Hitler's place, I seriously doubt that there would have been a holocaust even if she was a fascist. Hitler was a madman, and people don't tend to listen to madmen unless they make sense. He might not have been a reasonable man, but I don't think he would have been so successful in his agenda if his solution itself was completely irrational.
 
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Sojourner<><

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I will go on record as saying that nothing the Nazis did was wrong and nothing the Nazis did was right, but much of what they did was ignorant and a cover-up for power-grabbing (as government always is). No one who understands evolutionary theory in general and the reality of human genetics and anthropology could possibly buy into the racialist theories.
To make another point: The Greeks though they were inherently ethnically and culturally superior to everyone else in the world. Were they influenced by 'Darwinism'? Cultural conformism and irrational jingoism are products of tribalistic stupidity, to link them to a scientific doctrine which more than anything refutes such theories is ridiculous.

Whoa there..... are you saying genocide isn't wrong??
 
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Mling

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Fair enough. I'll list my own conclusions beginning with Darwinism, and if you can show them to be irrational, I'll rest my case.

Beginning with Darwinism itself, it proposes that species adapt over time through small changes in their genetic pool through propagation, mutation and selection of the fittest. It also proposes that it is not necessarily the strongest that survive, but those that are most responsive to change. Am I right about all of this so far?

If that is true, then it follows that any species which is to survive must possess some trait that aids its ability to survive in the face of drastic change, and that it is drastic change which enables these traits to become predominant within a population by eliminating a substantial number of individuals that do not possess it.

It is very reasonable to assume through human experience that within our species, traits such as intelligence, good eye sight, hearing and strength, etc., are traits that help us to adapt to change in our environments. But if we, through our own inventive ways, sufficiently conquer nature and minimize the effects of these drastic changes, then the very mechanism which has aided in the development of our 'superior' traits will itself be subverted if we continue in our ways. In fact it can be observed that through the practice of modern medicine, the lives of countless individuals are preserved where they would have died if left unattended. In this case we should expect some of these traits to degenerate over time at the very least.

So then, if we are to avoid the degeneration of our abilities to survive, the reintroduction of adverse circumstances which cause the deaths of the 'unfit' could be a solution to this problem.

Granted, this in no way defines exactly what it is to be 'unfit' or what a society should do, but I believe it sufficiently backs up my point that there is a logical implication between Darwinism and genocide.



Not necessarily. If for some odd reason, Aunt Bee rose to power in Hitler's place, I seriously doubt that there would have been a holocaust even if she was a fascist. Hitler was a madman, and people don't tend to listen to madmen unless they make sense. He might not have been a reasonable man, but I don't think he would have been so successful in his agenda if his solution itself was completely irrational.

Ok, you've drawn a line through some points and it appears to make sense and connect them, but it ignores some other, crucial points.

First is the very basic idea that evolution is only and ever a *descriptive* process. It places no judgment and prescribes no action. Many different courses of action--most commonly, none--can be derived from it, and which one a person chooses speaks only about *that person* and not evolution.

Second, it is just as reasonable, if not more so, to note that our manipulation of our environment allows for *more* mutations to occur, as ones that might be weak *at this moment* are allowed to survive. It is entirely possible that, should should some catastrophe occur, a weird mutation that might be considered a weakness now could prove useful. Deliberately killing off people who bear some trait could be our undoing. Example--those born blind will survive in darkness better than those who are used to seeing. Those who are fat will survive cold better, and those who are thin, heat. A population under constant stress will evolve only in a certain direction. A population that is allowed to flourish has much more potential.

Related to the second point is the fact that humans are not very good at figuring out what is a weakness and what is a strength. The first reason is simple prejudice--we see as "perfect" what is presented to us as such from early childhood. This is compounded with the fact that genetic traits are often bound together in surprising ways. Take the little white vegetable that looks like an egg and cross-breed it to try to make it bigger, just bigger, and for some reason, it turns purple and bizzarely shaped. Take foxes and breed them to reduce their anxiety with humans, and the color of their coats change and they begin to bark. In humans, there does appear to be a genetic connection between high intelligence and poor eyesight (reading does not permanently affect the eyes, just makes things blurry for a few minutes after). And let's not ignore the connection between sickle cell anemia and malaria.

Related to both of these facts, there is the point that a person who is weak in one way may be very strong in others, such that they *do* benefit the species, even though they would not survive in a more aggressive climate. A person with muscular dystrophy may be absolutely brilliant, but they wouldn't survive a day in the wild.

Also, no species has any duty to direct its own development. We are allowed to derive joy from our existence and our friends without worrying that our great-great-great-great-great grandchildren may be slightly less well off because of it.

And then, related to one of the above points, there is the point that we cannot predict the future. If we deliberately stress the species to point evolution in one direction, we could be caught with our pants down when the opposite happens. We could prepare ourselves so that, when only the strong survive, we'll be ready...and then find out that only the smart survive because *nobody* is strong enough. Or vice versa. Again, if we let the mutations build, then when catastrophe strikes, the chances are greater that *some* will survive.

So, if we start with the base of evolution and walk straight from there to see what the options are...this is not a reasonable course of action.

If we've *already decided* that some people are weak or offensive, and we wish to kill them off, then evolution presents a cover story, unless people look too closely.

This course of action only seems "reasonable" if you start at the conclusion and work backwards.
 
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quatona

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Fair enough. I'll list my own conclusions beginning with Darwinism, and if you can show them to be irrational, I'll rest my case.

Beginning with Darwinism itself, it proposes that species adapt over time through small changes in their genetic pool through propagation, mutation and selection of the fittest. It also proposes that it is not necessarily the strongest that survive, but those that are most responsive to change. Am I right about all of this so far?

If that is true, then it follows that any species which is to survive must possess some trait that aids its ability to survive in the face of drastic change, and that it is drastic change which enables these traits to become predominant within a population by eliminating a substantial number of individuals that do not possess it.

It is very reasonable to assume through human experience that within our species, traits such as intelligence, good eye sight, hearing and strength, etc., are traits that help us to adapt to change in our environments. But if we, through our own inventive ways, sufficiently conquer nature and minimize the effects of these drastic changes, then the very mechanism which has aided in the development of our 'superior' traits will itself be subverted if we continue in our ways. In fact it can be observed that through the practice of modern medicine, the lives of countless individuals are preserved where they would have died if left unattended. In this case we should expect some of these traits to degenerate over time at the very least.

So then, if we are to avoid the degeneration of our abilities to survive, the reintroduction of adverse circumstances which cause the deaths of the 'unfit' could be a solution to this problem.

Granted, this in no way defines exactly what it is to be 'unfit' or what a society should do, but I believe it sufficiently backs up my point that there is a logical implication between Darwinism and genocide.



Not necessarily. If for some odd reason, Aunt Bee rose to power in Hitler's place, I seriously doubt that there would have been a holocaust even if she was a fascist. Hitler was a madman, and people don't tend to listen to madmen unless they make sense. He might not have been a reasonable man, but I don't think he would have been so successful in his agenda if his solution itself was completely irrational.

1. Darwin´s theory describes what nature does all by itself. There is no prescriptive postulation whatsoever implied in a descriptive theory. Nature doesn´t need us to intentionally help it.

2. With a similar line of reasoning as yours it could be concluded from the theory of gravity that we should drop everything without resisting it.

3. You list a couple of particular human traits and leave out others - compassion for example. Why is that?

4. The idea of "Social Darwinism" has not been successful. It has been entertained at times in some small areas, but the overall fact is that we do the very opposite, as you yourself have pointed out. Yet, the human race is remarkably successful in terms of survival of the species. Facts demonstrate your conclusion to be false.

5. Now here´s the key question: What do you think should be done with descriptive scientific findings from which people like you and Hitler (who don´t grasp the difference between "is how nature works" and "is what we should do" - which, consistently applied, of course would allow for the absurdest prescriptive conclusions from all sorts of scientifc findings)manage to "reasonably" derive the prescriptive postulation that certain atrocities are not only justified but even the way to go?
Knock them down? Oppress them? Pretend they aren´t accurate? Burn the books?
 
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Xaoc

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One thing that hasn't been mentioned, so far as I can tell, is that not all forms of Eugenics are bad. For instance, if scientists created and gave people a gene that acted as a vaccine for HIV, or even say, the Rhino virus, how would that be bad? Accepting, of course, it wasn't all an elaborate hoax set up by the Godless, reprobate evolutionists and it actually killed people instead. Which I'm sure is very likely.
 
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Corey

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Beginning with Darwinism itself, it proposes that species adapt over time through small changes in their genetic pool through propagation, mutation and selection of the fittest. It also proposes that it is not necessarily the strongest that survive, but those that are most responsive to change. Am I right about all of this so far?

Not quite. Fitness is defined as the number of your offspring who survive to produce offspring of their own. It's not about responsiveness to change but rather, how many children your children have.

If that is true, then it follows that any species which is to survive must possess some trait that aids its ability to survive in the face of drastic change, and that it is drastic change which enables these traits to become predominant within a population by eliminating a substantial number of individuals that do not possess it.

Wrong. It's marginal increases to fit the ecological niche in which a species resides. Moreover, there can also be marginal shifts to different niches over time. Remember, "drastic" in geological/evolution time is tens of thousands of years--not a single generation.

It is very reasonable to assume through human experience that within our species, traits such as intelligence, good eye sight, hearing and strength, etc., are traits that help us to adapt to change in our environments.

Our eyes, hearing, and strength are terrible in comparison to other species. Our primary adaptive trait is the ability to manipulate our environment to fit us. In other words, we've inverted evolutionary principles.

But if we, through our own inventive ways, sufficiently conquer nature and minimize the effects of these drastic changes, then the very mechanism which has aided in the development of our 'superior' traits will itself be subverted if we continue in our ways. In fact it can be observed that through the practice of modern medicine, the lives of countless individuals are preserved where they would have died if left unattended. In this case we should expect some of these traits to degenerate over time at the very least.

Evolution can also occur through sex selection and now through direct manipulation of the genetic code itself. Moreover, as noted by others, you are trying to read a moral code into natural phenomenon. One does not equate necessarily to the other. For example, that moral code ignores the contributions made by those who wouldn't necessarily "fit," like Stephen Hawking (or in the case of the Nazi's, Einstein).

So then, if we are to avoid the degeneration of our abilities to survive, the reintroduction of adverse circumstances which cause the deaths of the 'unfit' could be a solution to this problem.

Granted, this in no way defines exactly what it is to be 'unfit' or what a society should do, but I believe it sufficiently backs up my point that there is a logical implication between Darwinism and genocide.

No. Genocide is the deliberate extirpation of a people. Extinction is a coincidental process whereby a species was unable to adapt to a changing situation. The distinction is that the former is a volitional process in the control of an agent (technical term for a decision maker) and the latter is a non-agentic process.
 
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Sojourner<><

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1. Darwin´s theory describes what nature does all by itself. There is no prescriptive postulation whatsoever implied in a descriptive theory. Nature doesn´t need us to intentionally help it.

2. With a similar line of reasoning as yours it could be concluded from the theory of gravity that we should drop everything without resisting it.

3. You list a couple of particular human traits and leave out others - compassion for example. Why is that?

4. The idea of "Social Darwinism" has not been successful. It has been entertained at times in some small areas, but the overall fact is that we do the very opposite, as you yourself have pointed out. Yet, the human race is remarkably successful in terms of survival of the species. Facts demonstrate your conclusion to be false.

I agree with you at least in that it is an incomplete conclusion, but your points here aren't enough to show that that line of reasoning alone is irrational. It makes enough sense to allow a madman like Hitler to sway a society into doing horrible things. You can argue against it all you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that it appears that this is how many people of post WWI Europe were thinking at the time. To demonstrate the kind thing that was going on in their heads here's a couple quotes from one of the founders of the idea of racial hygiene:

"Whoever is not physically or mentally fit must not pass on his defects to his children. The state must take care that only the fit produce children. Conversely, it must be regarded as reprehensible to withhold healthy children from the state." - Ernst Rüdin at a speech to the German Society for Rassenhygiene, quoting Hitler.

"The significance of Rassenhygiene did not become evident to all aware Germans until the political activity of Adolf Hitler and only through his work has our 30 year long dream of translating Rassenhygiene into action finally become a reality." - Ernst Rüdin.


5. Now here´s the key question: What do you think should be done with descriptive scientific findings from which people like you and Hitler (who don´t grasp the difference between "is how nature works" and "is what we should do" - which, consistently applied, of course would allow for the absurdest prescriptive conclusions from all sorts of scientifc findings)manage to "reasonably" derive the prescriptive postulation that certain atrocities are not only justified but even the way to go?
Knock them down? Oppress them? Pretend they aren´t accurate? Burn the books?

Lol... of course, we would all do well to adhere to the basic tenets of Christianity in loving our neighbors and bearing one another's burdens. If we do, God will give us the grace and wisdom we need to improve upon our problems. And if we reject morality, what's to stop us from doing what Hitler did in the case that another madman rises to power?
 
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LightHorseman

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One thing that hasn't been mentioned, so far as I can tell, is that not all forms of Eugenics are bad. For instance, if scientists created and gave people a gene that acted as a vaccine for HIV, or even say, the Rhino virus, how would that be bad? Accepting, of course, it wasn't all an elaborate hoax set up by the Godless, reprobate evolutionists and it actually killed people instead. Which I'm sure is very likely.

IMHO I believe the greatest crime of Hitler was to make eugenics such a taboo subject.

I believe that dysgenics is a greater threat to humanity than just about any other pending threat, but because of Hitler you can't even mention dysgenics or any method for dealing with it without being Godwin'sed to death.
 
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WorldIsMine

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Social evolution theory (often called 'Social Darwinism, though it predates Darwinism) has nothing to do with Nazism. Anyone who'd ever read an actual social evolutionist liberal, like Herbert Spencer, would know that. But popular statist academia prefers just to write him off as a fascistic eugenicist, in their usual counter-reality propaganda.
 
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quatona

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I agree with you at least in that it is an incomplete conclusion, but your points here aren't enough to show that that line of reasoning alone is irrational.
I am not trying to show this. I am trying to show that it is a rational/irrational as any other conclusion. I am trying to show that these conclusions are not implied by and do not necessarily follow from Darwin´s theory. I am trying to show that the conclusions are determined by other preconceptions, and not by Darwin´s theory itself.
This is what I think I have shown, and this is enough to reject the idea that the fact that
a. Hitler´s conclusion allows statements about the accuracy of Darwin´s theory
b. the ethical implications of Darwin´s theory.

Again: The conclusion that we should drop everything without hindering it from falling down is not irrational - given certain preconceptions are imposed on it. This makes no case against the theory of gravity, nor against publishing it.
It makes enough sense to allow a madman like Hitler to sway a society into doing horrible things.
Darwin´s theory was not required to "allow" persons to commit horrible atrocities. Such things happened before Darwin appeared on the scene, and there was no shortage of justifications that convinced others. Including justifications from Christianity.
On another note, I highly doubt that the popularity of Hitler in Germany had much to do with this particular justifications. He was a skilled demagogue, and he addressed the concerns and problems of the people and promised solutions.
You can argue against it all you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that it appears that this is how many people of post WWI Europe were thinking at the time.
And elsewhere they thought differently about it.

America´s current president Bush justified the attack on Iraq by reference to biblegod´s advice and Christian paradigms, and plenty of people bought into this justification. I´m not going to make a case against the bible or Christianity of this, likewise I expect you not to make a case against Darwin´s theory by pointing to the fact that people use it as a justification for their ideas that have their actual roots elsewhere.
To demonstrate the kind thing that was going on in their heads here's a couple quotes from one of the founders of the idea of racial hygiene:

"Whoever is not physically or mentally fit must not pass on his defects to his children. The state must take care that only the fit produce children. Conversely, it must be regarded as reprehensible to withhold healthy children from the state." - Ernst Rüdin at a speech to the German Society for Rassenhygiene, quoting Hitler.

"The significance of Rassenhygiene did not become evident to all aware Germans until the political activity of Adolf Hitler and only through his work has our 30 year long dream of translating Rassenhygiene into action finally become a reality." - Ernst Rüdin.
And these quotes demonstrate what exactly? Sure, that was what was going on in their heads, but I don´t even see any reference to Darwin´s theory, even less a conclusive deduction.




Lol... of course, we would all do well to adhere to the basic tenets of Christianity in loving our neighbors and bearing one another's burdens.
Of course, that would require us to ignore those parts of the bible who can be used to justify the opposite.
And, of course, these are tenets that are not exclusive to Christianity or original Christian ideas.
Interestingly, Darwin himself made quite some statements regarding what he felt were (and were not) ethical implications of his theory.
People pick and choose that which comes in handy in support of their preconceptions, and that´s not any different with the bible than it is with Darwin´s theory.

If we do, God will give us the grace and wisdom we need to improve upon our problems. And if we reject morality, what's to stop us from doing what Hitler did in the case that another madman rises to power?
What´s that got to do with anything? How does it answer my question?
We recently had a madman rising to power, and he justified his atrocities by reference to Christian morality. Go figure.
 
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