Think I'll sit down here for a bit... (11)

[seajoy]

In the meantime, seajoy, there is a person in this forum asking questions about confessional Lutherans and WELS in particular.

Yep - that is refreshing.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Yep - that is refreshing.

That it is!!

 

[Matt Faith]

here matt, i don't know if it'll help at all:

heterodox (ˈhɛtərəʊˌdɒks) — adj 1. at variance with established, orthodox, or accepted doctrines or beliefs 2. holding unorthodox opinions [C17: from Greek heterodoxos holding another opinion, from hetero- + doxa opinion]

False teaching.

thanks.

 

[Studeclunker]

what is heterodoxy?

A very nice way to say Heresy.

I'll be the first to admit that I can be quite sinful in the general forum. Perhaps it's best for me to bow out and let the ELCA have it. If peace is the goal - I don't see much other way to handle it.

But - in a few days, I'll probably be back in there.....knowing me. :o

I have to agree with you here, Sis. Sadly, that happened to many people in that denomination. Now those that remain (and still believe in something) find themselves in a Church that no longer believes in anything in particular. The Liberals will hound the Conservative element till the latter are driven out or silenced by sheer exhaustion. They are relentless and once they have control will never release it. Liberals will cry 'peace, tolerance, love, gentleness,' until they have control and then they will silence any oppositon. Just have a look at our government and their Political Correctness movement.

It is very hard to stay out of there.

Work at it. The liberals own it and will not release it. Even in this forum we're watched. I won't go back because if I do... well suffice it to say you'll never hear from me again. Here anyway.

As to the people who say to respond with gentleness and kindness, I would ask you to study what Luther had to say about the Romans and what Christ said about the Temple Authorities. The 'hetrodox' of their day. I assure you, if I spoke like Christ and Luther to the Heretics on this forum, the authorities here would ban me.

As to Zyrtec, in all honesty, it knocked me out because I was completely exhausted to begin with. Actually, today was a decent day and I got quite a bit done, thanks to the Zyrtec, I'm sure.

I do hope you all have a wonderfully inspiring day at Church tomorrow.

 

[seajoy]

Thanks for what you said, Stude.

 

[LilLamb219]

Happy Mothers Day to all the mommies!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

As to the people who say to respond with gentleness and kindness, I would ask you to study what Luther had to say about the Romans and what Christ said about the Temple Authorities. The 'hetrodox' of their day. I assure you, if I spoke like Christ and Luther to the Heretics on this forum, the authorities here would ban me.

'The people' who say that would be Jesus and the writers of the bible. Do you actually disagree with them?

Jesus knew the hearts of the people. We cannot see that far. We don't have that right.

And Luther was not infallible. Just because he used harsh words doesn't mean we have to.

Frankly, I'm ashamed at our behavior when it comes to what we do to a liberal who posts in the general forum. It's not the liberals who own that forum, it's the hard-line conservatives who take personal slight at a lot of things but have no problems dishing it back out.

It's shameful and I don't really want to be a part of it anymore.

 

[QuiltAngel]

I do find that some of the comments are particularly harsh. We also have people that when certain other people posts, replies are strong. This happens on both sides. If people would just address the discussion and not get nasty to and about others, that would go a long ways. This does not mean that we back down from what we believe, just that there are better ways to discuss.

Stude, it is normal that on forums all over the net that posts are watched. I am on many and have even served on some. Two were/are long term service too. These are not even places that bring out the hot buttons like on here, but still, stuff happens.

 

[seajoy]

Frankly, I'm ashamed at our behavior when it comes to what we do to a liberal who posts in the general forum. It's not the liberals who own that forum, it's the hard-line conservatives who take personal slight at a lot of things but have no problems dishing it back out.

It's shameful and I don't really want to be a part of it anymore.

I said I'll be the first to admit that I can be very sinful in the general forum. I decided in church this morning not to go back there. If the place is going to cause me to sin, I have no business being there.

There are things where some of us have weaknesses. I guess this is one of mine. Where as some people have trouble with gossip, or adultery, or any other such pet sins - mine is standing up with too much fervor for what I believe in. I can't keep a clear head in this area.

Well - no more (God help me). I do still want to come and hang out with the conservatives. But if the other part of the forum becomes too much of a temptation for me, I may have to give up this place altogether. I would have a real problem doing that, as I would miss those of you who are my friends.

 

[DaRev]

Well, I will still vehemently defend the truth whenever and wherever it is slandered. I'm not ashamed to stand up for what is true and right. If others want to hide behind the political correctness of the world, that's your choice. As for me, I am called to teach and preach the truth, and sometimes that means forcing people to confront the Law. It's never fun, but it has to be done in order for people to see their sin and have the opportunity to repent.

I guess that old saying is true - If you can't stand the heat, then stay the hell out of the kitchen.

 

[Studeclunker]

Sic 'em Revrand!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I said I'll be the first to admit that I can be very sinful in the general forum. I decided in church this morning not to go back there. If the place is going to cause me to sin, I have no business being there.

Don't feel bad, it happens to ALL of us. I'm as guilty as anyone else.

There are things where some of us have weaknesses. I guess this is one of mine. Where as some people have trouble with gossip, or adultery, or any other such pet sins - mine is standing up with too much fervor for what I believe in. I can't keep a clear head in this area.

There's a difference between standing up with fervor to defend what you believe and tearing someone down in the process.

What I don't like is that it seems that every conversation tends to downward spiral and then hurtful things get said by both sides. I don't like seeing my friends get hurt, and I don't like it when things are blown out of proportion because of it.

Well - no more (God help me). I do still want to come and hang out with the conservatives. But if the other part of the forum becomes too much of a temptation for me, I may have to give up this place altogether. I would have a real problem doing that, as I would miss those of you who are my friends.

Try limiting your time in the general forum to straight up fellowship. For example, Lux asked for prayers in the adiaphora thread. It was a delight to see everyone praying for her. There's plenty of threads that don't deal with the heavy duty topics like doctrine.

Well, I will still vehemently defend the truth whenever and wherever it is slandered. I'm not ashamed to stand up for what is true and right. If others want to hide behind the political correctness of the world, that's your choice. As for me, I am called to teach and preach the truth, and sometimes that means forcing people to confront the Law. It's never fun, but it has to be done in order for people to see their sin and have the opportunity to repent.

But you don't have to get down and dirty to do it, Rev. We're not talking political correctness here, we're talking basic decency. It is not difficult to say "this teaching is wrong and here's why" without delving into the personal insults.

I guess that old saying is true - If you can't stand the heat, then stay the hell out of the kitchen.

"stay the hell out of the kitchen" is no way for a pastor to talk, Rev, and you know it.

But I could also say the same to many people here. If you don't like what is being said, and you can't hold your tongue, then get out of the kitchen. While we believe we are right, this website doesn't cater to only conservative Lutherans. I've seen forums that do, though, and they spiral into the same petty arguments because we're all sinful.

Every conversation in the general forum doesn't have to devolve in to an "us versus them" mentality, yet that seems to happen quite frequently. And if you go read, there's a distinct pattern as to when the downward spiral begins. I hate to say it, but it starts with us.

Therefore, it needs to end with us.

 

[DaRev]

"stay the hell out of the kitchen" is no way for a pastor to talk, Rev, and you know it.

What's this? A personal jab? What happened to "this is wrong and here's why"? Or is it your suggestions only apply to others?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What's this? A personal jab? What happened to "this is wrong and here's why"? Or is it your suggestions only apply to others?

Are you a pastor or not? Is it appropriate or not? It is wrong to say such a thing when you are a pastor. What part of "this is wrong and here's why" does that not fit?

Had I said "you're pretty stupid for posting that", THAT would've been a flame.

 

[DaRev]

Are you a pastor or not?

Yes.

Is it appropriate or not?

What's wrong with it? I don't see a problem.

It is wrong to say such a thing when you are a pastor.

What's wrong with it?

What part of "this is wrong and here's why" does that not fit?

You haven't said what's wrong with it or why.

Had I said "you're pretty stupid for posting that", THAT would've been a flame.

Did I accuse you of flaming? Do you like putting words in people's mouths? You do it a lot. You made a comment without qualifying it. And do you really expect that it wouldn't be responded to?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Rev, I'm not doing this with you again. You know perfectly well why saying "stay the hell out of the kitchen" is wrong. You know that the rules of CF prohibit profanity. You used the word hell out of context. The fact that you are a pastor makes it even worse. You are to lead by example, are you not? Should I assume that by your post you would have no problems with your parishioners talking in the same manner? And, would your Bishop also have no problems with you talking in that manner?

Now, stop trying to shift the focus of the conversation. What we are doing in the general forum is WRONG. I am pleading with you all to stop the negative insults and the tearing down of other people. You, Rev, as a pastor ought to be saying these things, NOT ME. It shouldn't take a staff member at CF to set us right. You, Rev, as a pastor should not be encouraging such behavior.

If the general forum were to be closed, it wouldn't be a victory for this forum. It would be a huge defeat and it would be a testament to the inner hatred that people have of each other.

 

[QuiltAngel]

What is happening right now in this fellowship forum is wrong too. PW and Rev, take it to a PM.

People should be able to defend their doctrinal stance on the main forum. Sometimes it is going to get heated.

I would suggest that people who are asking questions about Lutherans be directed to posting those questions in the individual forums. That will be a bit more work on the mods, but it would help with some of these issues.

 

[Luther073082]

Actually I agree with preacher's wife a bit on this one. I used to spend time on the forums at oldlutheran.com which has a mix of ELCA pastors and laity and LCMS pastors and laity on there. And things just seem to get along nicer. There are disagreements but they just seemed to healthier then what I see here.

But on the general forum on here, it just way too often turns into a flame war. And I'm not going to point fingers and try to lay blame on any one person. The other side does it just as often. And I know its really easy to start flaming right back at someone when they've done it to you. Its certainly not right of accusing someone of lying when they've told a personal story, and in that I was trying to point out that with anything else they would not ask for "proof."

But . . . A Christian can debate without flaming, I've seen it done. And there are some pretty big disagreements out there.

But the debates on here just seem to get outright hostile. I'm not asking anyone to stop speaking the truth, but I do think we could all work on how we do that. Even the right message preached the wrong way does not do a lot of good. The truth must be spoken but it must be spoken in love.

And also the conservatives do form a majority on the general forum too. So lets not vicitimze ourselves in this. Go back and count those debating threads of how many conservatives are activly participating verses how many liberals.

Also I don't want to rehash the past here, but just to point it out, the first time I came here and stopped comming here several years ago I felt like I was being "ridden out of town" so to speak. Yes I was liberal then, yes I was more immature then and a lot more ignorant and there was plenty I had left to learn. And I committed just as many if not more sins in that time as all of you did. But I didn't like how things went when I was here.

And it really took me a while to try and come back here. And when I did I was pretty hesistant to do so because of the past. But I eventually decided to when I sort of felt the Holy Spirit remind me that if I want to be a Christian I can't live in the past. And I have to say maybe it wasn't proper of me to come in here like that without first saying I'm sorry for how things went back then. I was ignorant, arrogent and foolish and I'm sorry for those things. And in saying this I don't want to deemphasize anything I did wrong.

But I only bring this up because this is a problem thats been like this for a while and its almost a cultural thing here I think. So when there is something wrong with our culture the only way we can fix it is by all working together to put an end to it.

Anyways I don't want to get into a knock out drag out fight with you guys over this. I'm just saying how I feel so that I can sort of back up what Preacher's Wife is saying.

Edit: I don't think Rev's office really has anything to do with this. Its just a standard of Christian behavior that we should all be following, preaching the truth. . . WITH LOVE. Rev's ultimatly just a sinner like the rest of us, so I don't feel comfortable going "you're a pastor, you should be better behaved." because guess what. . . I'm not a pastor and I should be better behaved. It has nothing to do with pastor or laity. Its as simple as I am dead to sin. God called me to set myself apart from the world and gave me a standard of behavior. Where I don't live up to that standard I fail. So if we're going to call him out, just call him out as a Christian just like any of the rest of us. God may judge him more strictly because he holds the office of the keys, but that's all up to God, not up to us.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What is happening right now in this fellowship forum is wrong too. PW and Rev, take it to a PM.

I think what just happened is a good example of the disconnect people have with their own words. Rev took what I said to him as a personal jab when it was a statement on his actions. This happens far too much in the general forum and then the conversations disintegrate from there.

People should be able to defend their doctrinal stance on the main forum. Sometimes it is going to get heated.

Heated isn't the problem. Heated is okay as long as we're attacking the doctrine and not the person. Getting personal is the problem. Calling names, questioning one's Christianity - these are unnecessary elements of debating theology.

I would suggest that people who are asking questions about Lutherans be directed to posting those questions in the individual forums. That will be a bit more work on the mods, but it would help with some of these issues.

We are exploring making the general forum fellowship only. Questions about individual synods could be directed to each specific forum and debates on theology could be moved to GT. There is no move to make this happen at the moment, but it's been suggested and we're mulling it.

Again, it would not be a victory for anyone for that to happen. It would happen only because we felt that people could not control their actions in the general forum. I honestly do not want to see it come to that.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

and let me reiterate that part of the reason I'm posting this here is because I am as much to blame. I don't always debate the way I should.