Things to consider about the Ten Commandments

[Elder 111]

The letter in Acts 15 was written to newly-converted Pagans, who obviously had NO experience keeping the Sabbath. They were not Jews. In the context of the Chapter, the Pharisees were arguing that the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the Mosaic Law. If you cannot comprehend that the letter to the Antioch Christians strongly ruled against those Pharisees, then you really DO have a learning disability or are illiterate.

Your point implied that there was a statement so I asked for a statement.
Note carefully you said, and therefore must understand that the Pagans were converted. Once converted the "no experience in keeping the Sabbath" does not count. Conversion is conversion. You don't convert and be the same do you? 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
There were Sabbath meanings. Where are the objections from the Apostles! You content that it was not for the Pagans. Where is the objection in face of the fact that it was widely know that the Sabbath was kept in every city? You realize that the implication is that the Pagans were hearing this every Sabbath.

You DO understand that Pagans did not keep the Sabbath before they converted to Christianity, right? You must have a vivid imagination if you think newly-converted Pagans were already keeping the Sabbath in Antioch, when there is NOTHING in either the Bible or history that says they were! NOTHING! Nor is there anything in the Bible that says they kept the Sabbath AFTER the letter in Acts 15. NOTHING! And there is certainly no record of any Gentiles being put to Death for keeping the Sabbath in Antioch, so I think it is safe to say that NO Gentiles kept the Sabbath in Antioch, before or after the letter in Acts 15.

Honest Sabbatarians simply conceded that, at best, Sabbath Keeping might be permissible for Christians today, NEVER mandatory, NEVER more important than the Resurrection, NEVER having anything to do with Salvation, NEVER being a sin to not keep it.

There is nothing that says there were not. What says that they were keeping it is rejected not that there is none. God said that the stranger was to keep the Sabbath so why put someone to death for keeping it? There is nothing to concede in this matter on the part of Sabbath keepers. The ten commandments have nothing to do with salvation? You certain?!

 

[LarryP2]

There is nothing that says there were not. What says that they were keeping it is rejected not that there is none. God said that the stranger was to keep the Sabbath so why put someone to death for keeping it? There is nothing to concede in this matter on the part of Sabbath keepers. The ten commandments have nothing to do with salvation? You certain?!

Wow! You are actually arguing that unconverted Pagans kept the Sabbath! You are arguing that unconverted Pagans, where there is NOTHING in the Bible that says ANY of them ever darkened the door of a synagogue, were keeping the Sabbath before they were ever converted to Christianity. That is just incredible! Thank you for your candor!

WOW!

And here I thought your insane Sabbath obsession was proved by 5 trillion Sabbath Spam posts versus zero Resurrection posts. But now you have topped even that! Unconverted Pagans were keeping the Sabbath in Antioch, Syria which was a pagan Roman province completely disconnected from Judea, where all of the Jews lived!

SAY WHAT?

Here is what Antioch was like before the Apostles arrived:

"After the Romans occupied it under the leadership of Pompey in 64 B.C. they competed among each other to make Antioch the “Queen of the East.” They built temples, theatres, public baths, bridges and aqueducts. Besides its adornment, it was “notorious for the profligacy of its pagan population.”

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/church_history/audi_first_called_christians.htm

"Profligate Pagans" were keeping the Sabbath before the Apostles ever arrived! And even after they recieved the letter from the Apostles in Acts 15, which said absolutely nothing about a requirement for them to keep the Sabbath!

Wow! Just WOW!

 

[Elder 111]

Please point out ANYWHERE in that chapter in Romans where either the Ten Commandments OR the Sabbath is mentioned. He speaks of the Law that Jews were under before Christ, and that is all 613 NOT just the Ten Commandments. You are just being dishonest when you think he was talking about only the Ten Commandments. They come as a package, all or none. Paul was a Pharisee, so he knew how the Law worked, and the Ten Commandments cannot be separated from all of the rest of it.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
These look like they are from the ten commandments agreed?
I know God separated the ten commandments from the other laws.

1. He spoke and wrote them Himself.
2. He would not even let Moses rewrite them after Moses broke them. God was VERY VERY VERY particular when it came to the Ten Commandments.
3. There were separated from the other laws and placed under His throne/mercy seat in the ark of the Sanctuary.
4. Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the ten commandments if he wanted to be saved.
5. Rev. 12:
   And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God.
6. Rev 22:
   14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
   15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Elder 111]

Wow! You are actually arguing that unconverted Pagans kept the Sabbath! You are arguing that unconverted Pagans, where there is NOTHING in the Bible that says ANY of them ever darkened the door of a synagogue, were keeping the Sabbath before they were ever converted to Christianity. That is just incredible! Thank you for your candor!

WOW!

And here I thought your insane Sabbath obsession was proved by 5 trillion Sabbath Spam posts versus zero Resurrection posts. But now you have topped even that! Unconverted Pagans were keeping the Sabbath in Antioch, Syria which was a pagan Roman province completely disconnected from Judea, where all of the Jews lived!

SAY WHAT?

Here is what Antioch was like before the Apostles arrived:

"After the Romans occupied it under the leadership of Pompey in 64 B.C. they competed among each other to make Antioch the “Queen of the East.” They built temples, theatres, public baths, bridges and aqueducts. Besides its adornment, it was “notorious for the profligacy of its pagan population.”

"And They Were First Called Christians in Antioch..."

Profligate Pagans were keeping the Sabbath before the Apostles ever arrived!

Wow! Just WOW!

Show where I said unconverted pagans kept the Sabbath?

 

[orangeness365]

A lot of the ten commandments are repeated in the new testament, but not all of them. the sabbath is out. Jesus points out ultimately that loving God and people are the most important. However, there are guidelines. If you love someone you won't rob them blind. If you love God, you won't make him jealous by worshiping idols.

The Ten Commandments

20 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”










New Testament


Revelation 22:15
English Standard Version
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.



Ephesians 6:2-3
2“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3“that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”

Galatians 5:19-21 ESV

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Luke 18:20
20You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’”
Luke 18:20 Verse Concepts

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Here is my bible 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This is yours.
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
I was also making reference to what you said I admitted to not the biblical quote alone.
When the text is closely examined it is saying that those who "do" are the ones that are truely circumcised not those who have it in writing.
​

Obviously your entire theology is based on translation errors in the King James Version. Grow up and start using the NIV or one of the modern translations.

"and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code."

You REALLY cannot see that it says not by the written code, can you? You really cannot see he is describing circumcision of the heart, by the spirit and not by the written code? I helpfully boldfaced the not by the written code so that you might comprehend that its means not by the written code.

That is just remarkable!

You are not really reading what I write are you?

 

[LarryP2]

Show where I said unconverted pagans kept the Sabbath?

I said:

"You DO understand that Pagans did not keep the Sabbath before they converted to Christianity, right? You must have a vivid imagination if you think newly-converted Pagans were already keeping the Sabbath in Antioch, when there is NOTHING in either the Bible or history that says they were! NOTHING!"

There is nothing that says there were not. What says that they were keeping it is rejected not that there is none. God said that the stranger was to keep the Sabbath so why put someone to death for keeping it? There is nothing to concede in this matter on the part of Sabbath keepers. The ten commandments have nothing to do with salvation? You certain?!

See it now?

 

[LarryP2]

I was also making reference to what you said I admitted to not the biblical quote alone.

You are not really reading what I write are you?

I not only read it, I re-quoted it for you four times in bold face, so that you could not possibly miss it.

 

[Elder 111]

A lot of the ten commandments are repeated in the new testament, but not all of them. the sabbath is out. Jesus points out ultimately that loving God and people are the most important. However, there are guidelines. If you love someone you won't rob them blind. If you love God, you won't make him jealous by worshiping idols.

The Ten Commandments

20 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”










New Testament


Revelation 22:15
English Standard Version
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.



Ephesians 6:2-3
2“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3“that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”

Galatians 5:19-21 ESV

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Question. one day your parents instructs you to cross the road only when to have made sure the road is clear by looking in both direction first. Another day they tell you run across the raod when crossing and not walk. Would you believe that because they did not repeat the previous instructions that you were not obligated to do them? Or that it would be safe not to?

 

[LarryP2]

A lot of the ten commandments are repeated in the new testament, but not all of them. the sabbath is out. Jesus points out ultimately that loving God and people are the most important. However, there are guidelines. If you love someone you won't rob them blind. If you love God, you won't make him jealous by worshiping idols.

I congratulate you for seeing the obvious. However, do not make the wild assumption that Sabbatarian fanatics will ever see what you and I see. Be braced for certain eventuality that they will start accusing you of wanting to fornicate, murder, steal and lie because you point out the Sabbath is never commanded to Christians in the New Testament.

Question. one day your parents instructs you to cross the road only when to have made sure the road is clear by looking in both direction first. Another day they tell you run across the raod when crossing and not walk. Would you believe that because they did not repeat the previous instructions that you were not obligated not to do them? Or that it would be safe not to?

And you will have to excuse Elder. The new converted Pagan Christians had not read the Old Testament (although as demonstrated above, Elder thinks they kept the Sabbath anyway), so obviously Paul had to instruct them on Christian morals in the letters he wrote to them, whereupon he never mentioned a Sabbath requirement.

Strange oversight there, leaving the Sabbath out of all of his lists of morals, isn't it?

 

[Elder 111]

I said:

"You DO understand that Pagans did not keep the Sabbath before they converted to Christianity, right? You must have a vivid imagination if you think newly-converted Pagans were already keeping the Sabbath in Antioch, when there is NOTHING in either the Bible or history that says they were! NOTHING!"



See it now?

You really in all honesty thing or believe that I am saying that the unconverted pagan kept the Sabbath when I also said that convert means converted? You are looking for straws.

 

[LarryP2]

You really in all honesty thing or believe that I am saying that the unconverted pagan kept the Sabbath when I also said that convert means converted? You are looking for straws.

Yes, as a matter of fact I DO "in all honesty think" you believe that unconverted Pagans kept the Sabbath. You have said over and over again they were keeping it before the letter went out to the Antioch Christians. And your Sabbath Spam posts exceed your Resurrection posts by a factor of around 5 trillion to zero. So yes, it is perfectly logical to believe that you DO believe that Pagan Christians kept the Sabbath. That is no more illogical than believing that ANY Gentiles kept the Sabbath, before during or after Christ, since they were prohibited from doing so by Jewish Law, which was clear.

You "accidentally" "forgot" to attach your answer to my quote above:

.
There is nothing that says there were not. What says that they were keeping it is rejected not that there is none. God said that the stranger was to keep the Sabbath so why put someone to death for keeping it? There is nothing to concede in this matter on the part of Sabbath keepers. The ten commandments have nothing to do with salvation? You certain?!

And when you gave that answer in response to this assertion:

"You DO understand that Pagans did not keep the Sabbath before they converted to Christianity, right?"

It is totally logical to believe that you think unconverted Pagans kept the Sabbath, especially given your laserlike focus that the Bible was solely to reveal the Sabbath. The fact that unconverted Pagans had no Bible or access to one would not be one bit persuasive to you either.

You do, after all, insist that the Sabbath is a requirement of ALL humanity. That means unconverted Pagans, doesn't it?

 

[Sophrosyne]

What a confusing poll, but then I guess anything to draw attention to this nonsense that Gentiles need the 10 commandments or they are doomed to the Lake of Fire bit. I answered that it was Israel's property. I contend that Jesus completed any obligation anyone ever had towards the Old Covenant on the cross and that Gentiles were never obligated to the Law to begin with which means both Jew and Gentile in Christ need not worry about the Law ever again. The Law condemns and the Bible says there is no condemnation in Christ so to posit the Law's validity upon Christians is to make Jesus a Liar in it all.

 

[LarryP2]

What a confusing poll, but then I guess anything to draw attention to this nonsense that Gentiles need the 10 commandments or they are doomed to the Lake of Fire bit. I answered that it was Israel's property. I contend that Jesus completed any obligation anyone ever had towards the Old Covenant on the cross and that Gentiles were never obligated to the Law to begin with which means both Jew and Gentile in Christ need not worry about the Law ever again. The Law condemns and the Bible says there is no condemnation in Christ so to posit the Law's validity upon Christians is to make Jesus a Liar in it all.

You have obviously missed the most delicious part of this conversation. Elder, who monotonously insists that the Sabbath was given to all mankind which would obviously include Pagans, is now shocked that he actually stated that unconverted Pagans were keeping the Sabbath before the letter went out to Antioch in Acts 15.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yes, as a matter of fact I DO "in all honesty think" you believe that unconverted Pagans kept the Sabbath. You have said over and over again they were keeping it before the letter went out to the Antioch Christians. And your Sabbath Spam posts exceed your Resurrection posts by a factor of around 5 trillion to zero. So yes, it is perfectly logical to believe that you DO believe that Pagan Christians kept the Sabbath. That is no more illogical than believing that ANY Gentiles kept the Sabbath, before during or after Christ, since they were prohibited from doing so by Jewish Law, which was clear.

He even believes dogs kept the Sabbath if they wanderer into the area of the Synagog on Saturday and that Adam and Eve Kept the Sabbath and that Noah somehow on the Ark knew how to keep time while there was no moon or sun for 40 days so he could keep the Sabbath properly..... That would be hard to imagine.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You have obviously missed the most delicious part of this conversation. Elder, who insists that the Sabbath was given to all mankind, is now trying to wiggle his way out of his assertion that unconverted Pagans, who had no Bible or access to one, kept the Sabbath.

I've seen that nonsense... I think these folks have drank from the well of "Sabbath" water so long that they don't know what real water tastes like.

 

[LarryP2]

I've seen that nonsense... I think these folks have drank from the well of "Sabbath" water so long that they don't know what real water tastes like.

But try seeing it his way: The Bible was written only to disclose the Sabbath to humankind.

Have some empathy, would you?

 

[Sophrosyne]

But try seeing it his way: The Bible was written only to disclose the Sabbath to humankind.

Have some empathy, would you?

There won't be any SDA Astronauts for sure.

 

[LarryP2]

There won't be any SDA Astronauts for sure.

You have to understand that Adventists - who share the J-Dub doctrine that Jesus was merely Michael the Archangel, and for their first 100 years openly rejected Christ's deity; also think that Jesus came primarily to teach us to keep the Sabbath perfectly. Neither his death or his resurrection accomplished much or changed much. He role was strictly limited to providing an example of perfect Sabbath Keeping, which is the primary avenue of Salvation. That is the message behind the OP's statement on a different thread:

The people of God's kingdom celebrate Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles and the seventh day Sabbath.

The people of the Beast kingdom celebrate Easter, Good Friday, Christmas, Halloween and Sunday as the Lord's day.

Which kingdom do you belong to?

You cannot get more viciously and slanderously anti-Resurrection than to smear devout Christians who celebrate Christ's Resurrection as "Satanic Devil worshipers," as the Adventists do; or smearing devout Christians who celebrate Easter with the ugly, vicious and hideous bald-faced lie that they are "the people of the Beast Kingdom."


Elder sums up his Resurrection-limiting, "Salvation by perfect Sabbath Keeping" creed as follows:

There is nothing to concede in this matter on the part of Sabbath keepers. The ten commandments have nothing to do with salvation? You certain?!

See how little the Cross and the Resurrection accomplished? Only Sabbath Keepers really have any hope of Salvation.

 

[Elder 111]

Yes, as a matter of fact I DO "in all honesty think" you believe that unconverted Pagans kept the Sabbath. You have said over and over again they were keeping it before the letter went out to the Antioch Christians. And your Sabbath Spam posts exceed your Resurrection posts by a factor of around 5 trillion to zero. So yes, it is perfectly logical to believe that you DO believe that Pagan Christians kept the Sabbath. That is no more illogical than believing that ANY Gentiles kept the Sabbath, before during or after Christ, since they were prohibited from doing so by Jewish Law, which was clear.

You "accidentally" "forgot" to attach your answer to my quote above:



And when you gave that answer in response to this assertion:

"You DO understand that Pagans did not keep the Sabbath before they converted to Christianity, right?"

It is totally logical to believe that you think unconverted Pagans kept the Sabbath, especially given your laserlike focus that the Bible was solely to reveal the Sabbath. The fact that unconverted Pagans had no Bible or access to one would not be one bit persuasive to you either.

You do, after all, insist that the Sabbath is a requirement of ALL humanity. That means unconverted Pagans, doesn't it?

this is a good way to avoid directly addressing the biblical references that support the Ten commandments.