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Things to consider about the Ten Commandments

What does the bible say about the Ten commandments

  • It is abolished for christians

  • Cristians should keep the Ten Commandments, not to be saved but because they are saved.

  • Jesus kept the Ten commandments so I don't have to keep it.

  • It was for Israel only and not part of the new covenant.

  • Don't know.

  • Don't care.

  • Christians should only keep some of the Ten Commandments


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VictorC

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God did not have jurisdiction over the Gentile nations in the old testament. Satan did because he is the ruler of this world of sin. God chose Abraham out of the world to make a nation he could call after his own name. He gave them his laws and statutes and commandments so they would be a peculiar people to him. I'm sure he would have liked for all the world to keep the Sabbath but they were too busy worshipping idols and hated God. It was a bad time, very barbaric.
I can summarize your post this way: You've no regard for Scripture, having replaced it with speculation that in this case is completely contradictory. All one needs to reject this level of speculation is compare it with God's action of limiting the Sabbath to the children of Israel, for a defined length of time we can document origin and terminus for.

I do not think your 'Baptist' moniker is accurate.
 
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Sophrosyne

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We live under the new covenant today and Jesus said that he is Lord of the Sabbath and the Sabbath is for mankind not just the Jews. It is for everyone. So debating the merits of an obsolete covenant is pretty pointless.
The Sabbath was for a specific group of mankind as attested by the Bible throughout it all that ONLY Israel and Jews were the ones ever seen as keeping it (and those slaves in their care/ownership). We see rules in the Sabbath talking about NOT having OTHERS work on the Sabbath on their behalf. THIS in itself means that some were already EXCLUDED from keeping the Sabbath if there was others left that could be convinced to work. No Sabbath keeper could be convinced to work for another sabbath keeper.

The covenant is still valid for those who are practicing judaism that haven't accepted Jesus and become Christians, it is not valid for Christians however as one cannot be under competing covenants.
 
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Dunbar

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I can summarize your post this way: You've no regard for Scripture, having replaced it with speculation that in this case is completely contradictory. All one needs to reject this level of speculation is compare it with God's action of limiting the Sabbath to the children of Israel, for a defined length of time we can document origin and terminus for.

I do not think your 'Baptist' moniker is accurate.

I'm a 7th day Baptist so it is accurate. You hate the Sabbath and will wrest and twist the scripture to fit your false beliefs. You are a puppet of the Catholic church because you honor their holy day. The pope and Mary are your true gods.
 
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Dunbar

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The Sabbath was for a specific group of mankind as attested by the Bible throughout it all that ONLY Israel and Jews were the ones ever seen as keeping it (and those slaves in their care/ownership). We see rules in the Sabbath talking about NOT having OTHERS work on the Sabbath on their behalf. THIS in itself means that some were already EXCLUDED from keeping the Sabbath if there was others left that could be convinced to work. No Sabbath keeper could be convinced to work for another sabbath keeper.

The covenant is still valid for those who are practicing judaism that haven't accepted Jesus and become Christians, it is not valid for Christians however as one cannot be under competing covenants.

Sunday is not valid as it was instituted by the Catholics. You too are a puppet and slave to your false beliefs. You hate the Sabbath and see it as only a badge of legalism. The 7th day Sabbath is not a badge of legalism. It has been given that reputation because so many legalists have polluted it. Don't blame the day for the sins of fallen men.
 
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Sophrosyne

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Sunday is not valid as it was instituted by the Catholics. You too are a puppet and slave to your false beliefs. You hate the Sabbath and see it as only a badge of legalism. The 7th day Sabbath is not a badge of legalism. It has been given that reputation because so many legalists have polluted it. Don't blame the day for the sins of fallen men.
I don't hate the Sabbath, to me it is a Law that has nothing but historical meaning for a nation I don't belong to. Those who claim to love the Sabbath but in reality show contempt for the proper keeping of it are showing hate for it IMO.... they pervert it into a notion of their own ego showing others how they are "keeping" it while condemning people for not wishing to bother with a Law that is in reality stolen from the people of Israel in the first place. BTW.... I have no allegiance to "keep" Sundays... I have the freedom to worship and attend church on any day I choose. I don't feel required to "keep" or rather pretend to "keep" a day like most people who aren't Jews properly circumcised and keeping all 613 laws.
 
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Dunbar

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I don't hate the Sabbath, to me it is a Law that has nothing but historical meaning for a nation I don't belong to. Those who claim to love the Sabbath but in reality show contempt for the proper keeping of it are showing hate for it IMO.... they pervert it into a notion of their own ego showing others how they are "keeping" it while condemning people for not wishing to bother with a Law that is in reality stolen from the people of Israel in the first place. BTW.... I have no allegiance to "keep" Sundays... I have the freedom to worship and attend church on any day I choose. I don't feel required to "keep" or rather pretend to "keep" a day like most people who aren't Jews properly circumcised and keeping all 613 laws.

This is your choice. I do not force my views on anyone, I merely share and if you don't agree then fine. Move along. I find it laughable when people who go to church every Sunday say they don't keep Sunday. That's a good one, I'll have to remember that.
 
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VictorC

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I'm a 7th day Baptist so it is accurate.
Then you should change your moniker, as you aren't a Baptist.
You hate the Sabbath and will wrest and twist the scripture to fit your false beliefs. You are a puppet of the Catholic church because you honor their holy day. The pope and Mary are your true gods.
Oh, my goodness - you sure aren't a Baptist of any flavor. When you resort to argumentum ad hominem that is wholly fallacious and can't respond to Scripture, you illustrate the nature of a non-Christian cult.
 
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Sophrosyne

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This is your choice. I do not force my views on anyone, I merely share and if you don't agree then fine. Move along. I find it laughable when people who go to church every Sunday say they don't keep Sunday. That's a good one, I'll have to remember that.
Your accusations show ignorance. My church has services 3 days a week I sometimes go on Sundays, Saturdays, and Wednesdays. When I go on Saturdays it has nothing to do with the Sabbath as the Sabbath law says nothing about attending church on the Sabbath at all so in other words this Sunday buzz of yours is for most Christians a red herring.
 
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Dunbar

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Oh, my goodness - you sure aren't a Baptist of any flavor. When you resort to argumentum ad hominem that is wholly fallacious and can't respond to Scripture, you illustrate the nature of a non-Christian cult.

Awwww...he can't win the argument so he has to bring out the cult hammer. My cult leader is Jesus Christ and I gave my heart to him when I was 8 years old. He takes care of me wherever I go. I spent 2 years in Iraq with bombs, bullets and missles flying over my head and I didn't get a scratch. Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so.
 
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Dunbar

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Your accusations show ignorance. My church has services 3 days a week I sometimes go on Sundays, Saturdays, and Wednesdays. When I go on Saturdays it has nothing to do with the Sabbath as the Sabbath law says nothing about attending church on the Sabbath at all so in other words this Sunday buzz of yours is for most Christians a red herring.

I'm not interested in your church. The worst sinners I ever met go to church. I try to stay away as much as possible.
 
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Sophrosyne

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I'm not interested in your church. The worst sinners I ever met go to church. I try to stay away as much as possible.
I think church is a good place for the worst sinners to be myself as they need instruction on how to not sin. I find people who believe unscriptural stuff need instruction also like NOT to teach non Jews the need to keep the Sabbath I know of few churches that teach that nonsense and I've heard often those churches are no better and often worse than churches who teach nothing of the sort.
 
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Dunbar

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I think church is a good place for the worst sinners to be myself as they need instruction on how to not sin. I find people who believe unscriptural stuff need instruction also like NOT to teach non Jews the need to keep the Sabbath I know of few churches that teach that nonsense and I've heard often those churches are no better and often worse than churches who teach nothing of the sort.

You have a proud attitude because Sunday is popular and kept by the majority of Christians. I am not downing the Catholic church when I say that Sunday worship originated with them. It is a fact of history that you are too weak to admit. The Catholics readily admit this. Why can't Protestants? No, they have to dream up fairy tales like Sunday being the Lord's day so they don't have to face the cold hard truth. Their customs are Catholic and not scriptural. It's very sad how weak Christians have become. Like little mice afraid to question anything for fear of what they might find. All the skeletons that lie in the closet. We're all going to have to face the truth some day.
 
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VictorC

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Awwww...he can't win the argument so he has to bring out the cult hammer. My cult leader is Jesus Christ and I gave my heart to him when I was 8 years old. He takes care of me wherever I go. I spent 2 years in Iraq with bombs, bullets and missles flying over my head and I didn't get a scratch. Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so.
In a previous post, you contradicted Jesus. You also contradicted Moses, God Speaking to Moses, and those in Nehemiah's attendance.
No, you resorted to hominem ad argumentum repeatedly as a defense, and it is clear that you aren't led by anyone remotely divine.

Thanks for your service in Iraq. But that is hardly related to the conversation, and your deflection (read: red herring) doesn't impress a Vietnam veteran very much.
 
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Sophrosyne

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You have a proud attitude because Sunday is popular and kept by the majority of Christians. I am not downing the Catholic church when I say that Sunday worship originated with them. It is a fact of history that you are too weak to admit. The Catholics readily admit this. Why can't Protestants? No, they have to dream up fairy tales like Sunday being the Lord's day so they don't have to face the cold hard truth. Their customs are Catholic and not scriptural. It's very sad how weak Christians have become. Like little mice afraid to question anything for fear of what they might find. All the skeletons that lie in the closet. We're all going to have to face the truth some day.
You are the one with the major attitude here, I've told you I hold no allegiance to a day of worship and that your argument is nothing but a red herring. The day of worship has nothing to do with keeping the Sabbath if you believe that nonsense you need to really study Jewish history.
The truth of the matter is that Sunday was a logical day for Christians to gather together because many of the first believers were Jews who were still required by the Nation of Israel and the Temple priests to keep a proper Sabbath and these same Temple priests were not going to allow Christianity to be taught or worship related to it in their temples so for Christians to gather they had to do it on another day..... Sunday.
If you want to be a Jew and practice a perversion of Judaism by keeping the Sabbath go for it, but no Christian was ever commanded to do so and until you provide a New Testament author proclaiming such then you are just playing Don Quixote here.
 
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LarryP2

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The bible is silent about a great many things. This is not a license to make wild speculation like the Sabbath and the 7th day being separate. There were special Sabbaths that went with the feasts but the Sabbath of the 7 day cycle has always been in place from creation. The 7th day Sabbath is for mankind not the Jews only.

The Bible is NOT silent about the covenants that Noah and Abraham were under, nor did Judaism's interpretation of the 7 Noahide Commandments lack specificity. ALL of the opinions of the ruling courts of Judaism prohibited Gentiles from keeping the Sabbath, on pain of death, and always referred to the fact that they had "their" 7 Noahide Mitzvot. Neither Noah's or Abraham's covenants contained a Sabbath requirement in either the Bible version or in the Mishnah Torah.

God did not have jurisdiction over the Gentile nations in the old testament. Satan did because he is the ruler of this world of sin. God chose Abraham out of the world to make a nation he could call after his own name. He gave them his laws and statutes and commandments so they would be a peculiar people to him. I'm sure he would have liked for all the world to keep the Sabbath but they were too busy worshipping idols and hated God. It was a bad time, very barbaric.

You are aware that ALL of the "Gentile Nations" descended from Noah, who was given the universally-kept 7 Noahide Commandments, and which contained no Sabbath? I just wonder why Sabbatarians ALWAYS overlook the law that was given to Noah and Abraham and then speculate about what "Law" they were required to follow.
 
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Dunbar

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In a previous post, you contradicted Jesus. You also contradicted Moses, God Speaking to Moses, and those in Nehemiah's attendance.
No, you resorted to hominem ad argumentum repeatedly as a defense, and it is clear that you aren't led by anyone remotely divine.

Please stop posturing and coming across like some academic wannabe. I do not have time to go back thru all my posts to see what you are alluding to. The way things generally work on a public forum is that you will quote what I have said in a post and then tell me why you disagree. If you cannot do this then I cannot help you.
 
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Dunbar

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You are aware that ALL of the "Gentile Nations" descended from Noah, who was given the universally-kept 7 Noahide Commandments, and which contained no Sabbath? I just wonder why Sabbatarians ALWAYS overlook the law that was given to Noah and Abraham and then speculate about what "Law" they were required to follow.

Very little is said about many things in Genesis. You refuse to admit the the 7th day Sabbath goes back to creation not Noah or Abraham. It was in existence before the Law which means that it is higher than the carnal commandments which have been abolished. Marriage and the Sabbath were instituted in Eden. Do non-Jews get married today?
 
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LarryP2

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Very little is said about many things in Genesis. You refuse to admit the the 7th day Sabbath goes back to creation not Noah or Abraham. It was in existence before the Law which means that it is higher than the carnal commandments which have been abolished. Marriage and the Sabbath were instituted in Eden. Do non-Jews get married today?

No need to speculate and guess. Following are the relevant laws and their application as given orally by Moses, and enforced with vigor by Jewish courts, up to and including the Sanhedrin. Not only does the Sabbath NOT go back to creation, but Gentiles who tried keeping it were subject to the Death Penalty:

Chapter 9.

9.1 Adam, the first man, was commanded with six commandments: 1) idolatry, 2) “blessing” (euphemistically) the Name (of G-d), 3) murder, 4) illicit sexual relations, 5) thievery and, 6) establishing a system of justice.

9.2 Even though all of these have been received as a Tradition from Moses our Teacher and we can understand the rationale for them, nevertheless, from(verses in) the Torah (we learn that) it was these that they were commanded. A seventh commandment forbidding the eating of a limb torn from a live animal was added for Noah, as it says, “Even flesh, life is in the blood, do not eat of it” (Genesis 9:4).

9.3 These commandments were universally applicable - until Abraham. With Abraham, circumcision was also commanded and he prayed Shacharis (the Morning Prayer). Isaac separated out a tithe and added another prayer in the afternoon and, with Jacob, the prohibition against eating the sciatic nerve was added, as was the Maariv (Evening) Prayer. In Egypt, Amram was commanded with other precepts81F82 and, with Moses our Teacher, the Torah was completed.
.....
10.11 A non-Jew who busied himself with Torah is liable with his life. He must involve himself in their Seven Commandments only. Similarly, a non-Jew who “rested” as one would on Shabbos, even on a weekday, is liable with the death penalty. There is no reason to mention (that he is culpable) if he invented his own holiday.

10.12 The principle here is that we do not permit them to make a new religion and create new commandments for themselves based on their own reasoning. They may only become Righteous Converts and accept upon themselves all the Commandments, or they must observe their own (Seven) Laws only, and not add or detract from them. If a non-Jew busied himself with Torah or made Shabbos or made up something new, we give him lashes and punish him and tell him that he is liable with the death penalty for doing this. But he is not executed.

http://halakhah.com/rst/kingsandwars.pdf

It's good that God did not leave the Patriarchs to guess about the Law they were under. Here's Edersheim's version of the Noahide commandments, which were deliberately left out of Patriarchs and Prophets while Ellen White was plagiarizing whole chapters out of Edersheim's Old Testament:

"Perhaps we ought also to notice in this connection that, whatever may have been the common practice before, now for the first time the use of animal food was expressly permitted, with the exception of the blood, and that probably for the reason afterwards mentioned in the case of sacrifices, that the blood was the seat of life. (Leviticus 17:11, 14) Another and most important change is marked by the solemn prohibition of murder, with this addition, that "whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." Such crimes were no longer to be avenged directly by God Himself, but He delegated His authority to man. (Romans 8:1, 2) As Luther rightly says, "In these words the civil magistracy is instituted, and the Divine right of bearing the sword." For when it is added, as a reason why murder should be punished with death, that God made man in His own image, it seems to convey that vengeance might not be taken by any one at his own will, but that this belonged to those who on earth represented the authority of God, or were His delegates; whence also they are called in Psalm 82:6, "gods," or rather "Elohim."* And, as Luther rightly argues, "If God concedes to man the power over life and death, assuredly this carries with it authority over that which is less than life, such as goods, family, wife, children, servants, and land." Thus the words spoken by the Lord to Noah contain the warrant and authority of those who are appointed rulers and judges over us. In later times the Jews have been wont to speak of what they called the seven Noachic commandments, which, according to them, were binding upon all Gentile proselytes. These were a prohibition (1) of idolatry, (2) of blasphemy, (3) of murder,
(4) of incest, (5) of robbery and theft, (6) of eating blood and strangled animals, and (7) an injunction of obedience to magistrates. (Comp. also Acts 15:20)."
Chapter 7

And here is how the Sanhedrin viewed its duty to enforce the Noahide Commandments in areas under its jurisdiction:

"Having established that the Noachide commandments are binding on Gentiles, and that lack of knowledge does not excuse obligation, it is necessary to explore what the commandments are. The talmud[28] recounts seven categories of prohibition: idol worship, taking God's name in vain, murder, prohibited sexual activity, theft, eating flesh from a living animal, and the obligation to enforce laws. As is obvious from this list, these seven commandments are generalities which contain within them many specifications -- thus, for example, the single categorical prohibition of sexual promiscuity includes both adultery and the various forms of incest.[29] As has been noted already, these Noachide laws appear to encompass nearly 60 of the 613 biblical commandments incumbent on Jews, which is nearly one in four of those biblical commandments generally applicable in post-temple times."
....
"However, disputes about the details should not be overstated to undermine the clarity of the general principles. The application of Noachide law to many general areas is relatively clear. Homosexuality is forbidden,[37] as is adultery[38] and bestiality.[39] Murder is prohibited, and subsumed in the prohibition of murder is abortion.[40] So too, most forms of theft are prohibited, as is eating the flesh of a living animal.[41] Indeed, the general Noachide laws share a common base of "ethics" that most religious peoples would share."
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/noach2.html#noachide

The history is absolutely solid: NONE of the Patriarchs prior to Moses were given the Sabbath.
 
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VictorC

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Please stop posturing and coming across like some academic wannabe. I do not have time to go back thru all my posts to see what you are alluding to. The way things generally work on a public forum is that you will quote what I have said in a post and then tell me why you disagree. If you cannot do this then I cannot help you.
I don't think you can help others if you can't be bothered to support your views. As an example, you just posted this:
You refuse to admit the the 7th day Sabbath goes back to creation not Noah or Abraham. It was in existence before the Law which means that it is higher than the carnal commandments which have been abolished. Marriage and the Sabbath were instituted in Eden.
We aren't going to admit something contrary to Scripture.
  • The Genesis account doesn't record a rest observed by any human; the seventh day is in absolute terms rather than a repetitive cycle to describe God's rest.
  • Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath, using the same sentence structure found in Deuteronomy 5:15 that lists a single event in the past as the impetus to ordain the periodic sabbath.
  • Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to document God's rest those who had the sabbath had not attained.
  • Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
  • Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
  • Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.
 
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