Thin layer of silt proves flood

[pitabread]

Over 100 independent stories from different tribes and civilizations generally is considered conclusive evidence that something happened and not the old tired "flood", but these stories are specific enough in detail to feel they are all talking about the same event. For example, the oldest chinese character for boat is a word that literally means 8 souls (Noah, his 3 sons, and their wives).

Two things to keep in mind though:

1) Humans borrow from past stories all the time. Repetition of the same story may indicate a common origin of the story, but not necessarily the event itself.

2) Humans exaggerate in story-telling. Given that flooding is something that regularly occurs, it's not unusual for people to tell stories about such things. To this very day, humans continue to use disasters (including Earth-ending disasters) in our story-telling. That there are human stories of a globe-destroying flood is hardly evidence of a globe-destroying flood, any more than Independence Day is evidence of a real alien invasion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

there is overwhelming evidence of a global flood at the end of the last ice age. Over 100 independent stories from different tribes and civilizations generally is considered conclusive evidence that something happened and not the old tired "flood", but these stories are specific enough in detail to feel they are all talking about the same event. For example, the oldest chinese character for boat is a word that literally means 8 souls (Noah, his 3 sons, and their wives).

There is also geologic evidence that at the end of the last ice age huge floods 40 feet deep came down out of the Himalayas and Rockies and swept across the continents. We theorized large ice dams were created at the end of the ice age as the glaciers melted and then these dams gave way. This theory has very little basis, we are currently watching glaciers melts and they don't form ice dams. (this theory of ice dams is portrayed in the Ice Age cartoon movies). But what isn't a theory is that huge floods did come down from the Himalayas 40 feet deep and also from the Rockies. We can measure the depth of the water from the height of the ripple marks that were left behind.

Not only so but at the same time hundreds of species of large ungulates all went extinct on the six continents. There is no plausible explanation for how this would happen if you do not include a global cataclysmic flood. The current theories are woefully lacking in evidence. 1. Man hunted several hundred creatures to extinction on 6 different continents at the same time even though there are no bones or skins as evidence to support this. 2. Disease killed several hundred species on 6 continents even though they are different species and many of these creatures like the Saber tooth tiger do not travel in large packs but are relatively isolated. 3. There was stress on their habitat even though at the end of the ice age habitat was expanding, not shrinking.

There is evidence that the Black sea flooded at the end of the last ice age wiping out the community living by the lake at the time.

There is evidence of a large meteorite that hit the Indian ocean at this time causing giant chevrons to form on Madagascar from mud and sediment from the ocean floor and vaporizing a huge amount of sea water and sending it up into the stratosphere where it would have circled the globe and come down as rain, perhaps even for the next 40 days.

No, at best there are good sized local floods at different times.

But just for fun please present a peer reviewed article about this event.

 

[Speedwell]

there is overwhelming evidence of a global flood at the end of the last ice age. Over 100 independent stories from different tribes and civilizations generally is considered conclusive evidence that something happened and not the old tired "flood", but these stories are specific enough in detail to feel they are all talking about the same event. For example, the oldest chinese character for boat is a word that literally means 8 souls (Noah, his 3 sons, and their wives).

There is also geologic evidence that at the end of the last ice age huge floods 40 feet deep came down out of the Himalayas and Rockies and swept across the continents. We theorized large ice dams were created at the end of the ice age as the glaciers melted and then these dams gave way. This theory has very little basis, we are currently watching glaciers melts and they don't form ice dams. (this theory of ice dams is portrayed in the Ice Age cartoon movies). But what isn't a theory is that huge floods did come down from the Himalayas 40 feet deep and also from the Rockies. We can measure the depth of the water from the height of the ripple marks that were left behind.

Not only so but at the same time hundreds of species of large ungulates all went extinct on the six continents. There is no plausible explanation for how this would happen if you do not include a global cataclysmic flood. The current theories are woefully lacking in evidence. 1. Man hunted several hundred creatures to extinction on 6 different continents at the same time even though there are no bones or skins as evidence to support this. 2. Disease killed several hundred species on 6 continents even though they are different species and many of these creatures like the Saber tooth tiger do not travel in large packs but are relatively isolated. 3. There was stress on their habitat even though at the end of the ice age habitat was expanding, not shrinking.

There is evidence that the Black sea flooded at the end of the last ice age wiping out the community living by the lake at the time.

There is evidence of a large meteorite that hit the Indian ocean at this time causing giant chevrons to form on Madagascar from mud and sediment from the ocean floor and vaporizing a huge amount of sea water and sending it up into the stratosphere where it would have circled the globe and come down as rain, perhaps even for the next 40 days.

Still, there is a logical disjunct here which must be addressed. A real flood of the kind you are describing does not 'prove the Bible.'

The claim made for the Noah story in the Bible by creationists is not that there was a real flood which served as a basis for the story, but that the text of the story is the literal and inerrant product of plenary verbal inspiration. A real flood no more proves this than the existence of the Mississippi River proves the literal inerrancy of Tom Sawyer.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Weird that these cultures and stories survived being wiped out by a global flood that left just one family alive.

That is illogical. Noah and his family passed the stories on generation to generation. Nothing unusual about that. Other cultures picked up on the flood stories. As happens still, a bit of mythology got mixed in with some accounts. God ensured that we have a record of what really happened. It's called the Bible.

 

[ZNP]

No, at best there are good sized local floods at different times.

But just for fun please present a peer reviewed article about this event.

Which event? Flood from Himalayas? Flood from Rockies? Flood of Black Sea? Extinction of large ungulates at end of the last ice age? or Meteorite that hit the Indian Ocean forming the chevrons on Madagascar?

 

[ZNP]

Quaternary extinction event - Wikipedia



https://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2004/circ1254/pdf/Hold_On/circ1254_051204old.pdf



Scientists Debate Evidence of Ancient Megatsunami

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which event? Flood from Himalayas? Flood from Rockies? Flood of Black Sea? Extinction of large ungulates at end of the last ice age? or Meteorite that hit the Indian Ocean forming the chevrons on Madagascar?

You tried to claim there was a global flood, didn't you? That means you need to show that all of those local floods occurred simultaneously.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Quaternary extinction event - Wikipedia



https://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2004/circ1254/pdf/Hold_On/circ1254_051204old.pdf



Scientists Debate Evidence of Ancient Megatsunami

Fail. Try again.

 

[pitabread]

God ensured that we have a record of what really happened. It's called the Bible.

Except that the flood stories predate the Biblical account, suggesting the Biblical account itself is borrowed from earlier stories.

It's a bit odd to claim the Biblical version as the definitive version in that context.

 

[ZNP]

You tried to claim there was a global flood, didn't you? That means you need to show that all of those local floods occurred simultaneously.

No, what I did do is show that many elements of the story have been corroborated, that it is not absurd or impossible to envision a global flood where it rains for 40 days and nights, nor is it ridiculous to say that the flood came down over the top of the highest mountains 40 feet deep, nor is it impossible to say that a man built a large boat and filled it with domesticated animals, like a giant barn.

What you are asking for you can do the research yourself, I am not interested nor are the other scientists, it is a career ending choice.

But 50 years ago arrogant [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ants laughed that the story was absurd, today the evidence continues to pile up one piece upon another that the story is not absurd, and what is really absurd is to think that people 8,000 years ago were somehow foolish and made up fanciful stories. That attitude was arrogant and dismissive and is no longer supportable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is illogical. Noah and his family passed the stories on generation to generation. Nothing unusual about that. Other cultures picked up on the flood stories. As happens still, a bit of mythology got mixed in with some accounts. God ensured that we have a record of what really happened. It's called the Bible.

It is logical. Flood stories vary from culture to culture.

People need water and it is useful for transportation. As a result many cultures live on navigable waters. They also tend to flood occasionally so flood myths are common. Once again you are making ad hoc explanations.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, what I did do is show that many elements of the story have been corroborated, that it is not absurd or impossible to envision a global flood where it rains for 40 days and nights, nor is it ridiculous to say that the flood came down over the top of the highest mountains 40 feet deep, nor is it impossible to say that a man built a large boat and filled it with domesticated animals, like a giant barn.

What you are asking for you can do the research yourself, I am not interested nor are the other scientists, it is a career ending choice.

But 50 years ago arrogant [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ants laughed that the story was absurd, today the evidence continues to pile up one piece upon another that the story is not absurd, and what is really absurd is to think that people 8,000 years ago were somehow foolish and made up fanciful stories. That attitude was arrogant and dismissive and is no longer supportable.

No, you failed at showing any corroboration. Your sources showed different events at different times. They refuted your claims.

 

[pitabread]

No, what I did do is show that many elements of the story have been corroborated, that it is not absurd or impossible to envision a global flood where it rains for 40 days and nights, nor is it ridiculous to say that the flood came down over the top of the highest mountains 40 feet deep, nor is it impossible to say that a man built a large boat and filled it with domesticated animals, like a giant barn.

The problem is that for a global flood to occur it has to be within the realm of basic physics. A flood in which waters covered the entire Earth falls outside of that.

 

[Speedwell]

No, what I did do is show that many elements of the story have been corroborated, that it is not absurd or impossible to envision a global flood where it rains for 40 days and nights, nor is it ridiculous to say that the flood came down over the top of the highest mountains 40 feet deep, nor is it impossible to say that a man built a large boat and filled it with domesticated animals, like a giant barn.

What you are asking for you can do the research yourself, I am not interested nor are the other scientists, it is a career ending choice.

But 50 years ago arrogant [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ants laughed that the story was absurd, today the evidence continues to pile up one piece upon another that the story is not absurd, and what is really absurd is to think that people 8,000 years ago were somehow foolish and made up fanciful stories. That attitude was arrogant and dismissive and is no longer supportable.

No one here is proposing that the author(s) of the Noah story "were somehow foolish and made up fanciful stories." It appears that the consensus in this thread is that it is entirely possible that the Noah story is based on an actual flood. I don't know what arrogant (...)ants you are referring to, but none of them are here.

 

[ZNP]

Beryllium-10 dating of late Pleistocene megafloods and Cordilleran Ice Sheet retreat – Ice Age Floods Institute

the dating of the Missoula floods and there were several episodes of flooding, are plus or minus 1.4 thousand years.

It is extremely difficult to date a flood event. Likewise with extinction events. You can date bones with carbon dating that gives you a relatively close date as to how old that particular bone is but doesn't tell you that this is when this creature went extinct. Terrestrial animals are much more difficult to determine when they went extinct because there is often no bone yard. What we know is when they lived and now they don't.

It is a naive argument to look at an estimated date for a flood or extinction and the presume a level of precision that no one has the capability to determine. These dates are all best guesses and best estimates.

 

[ZNP]

No one here is proposing that the author(s) of the Noah story "were somehow foolish and made up fanciful stories." It appears that the consensus in this thread is that it is entirely possible that the Noah story is based on an actual flood. I don't know what arrogant (...)ants you are referring to, but none of them are here.

I heard this repeatedly 50 years ago, as I mentioned. My point is that there have been lots of logical arguments over those 50 years that have since crumpled under the evidence.

1. If there was a flood coming over the top of the highest mountains 40 feet deep then it would have rolled the boats over and over. -- Seemed absurd to have such a flood and such a boat, then we discovered that the Black Sea flooded like a bath tub.

2. There is no meteorological event that would result in 40 days and nights of rain worldwide. Then we discovered evidence of a very large meteorite hitting the Indian ocean.

3. There is no evidence of a flood that went over the top of the Himalayas and Rockies. Again, proven false, we have found exactly that.

I think it is important when you hear arrogant dismissal of the account in Noah to remember the history of a long line of arrogant dismissal, all of which has been proven false.

 

[essentialsaltes]

That is illogical. Noah and his family passed the stories on generation to generation. Nothing unusual about that. Other cultures picked up on the flood stories. As happens still, a bit of mythology got mixed in with some accounts. God ensured that we have a record of what really happened. It's called the Bible.

That is illogical. Utnapishtim and his family passed the stories on generation to generation. Nothing unusual about that. Other cultures picked up on the flood stories. As happens still, a bit of mythology got mixed in with some accounts. Ea ensured that we have a record of what really happened. It's called the Gilgamesh Epic.

 

[pitabread]

2. There is no meteorological event that would result in 40 days and nights of rain worldwide. Then we discovered evidence of a very large meteorite hitting the Indian ocean.

If you're talking about the Burckle crater impact, where is the evidence that would have resulted in "40 days and nights of rain worldwide"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Beryllium-10 dating of late Pleistocene megafloods and Cordilleran Ice Sheet retreat – Ice Age Floods Institute

the dating of the Missoula floods and there were several episodes of flooding, are plus or minus 1.4 thousand years.

It is extremely difficult to date a flood event. Likewise with extinction events. You can date bones with carbon dating that gives you a relatively close date as to how old that particular bone is but doesn't tell you that this is when this creature went extinct. Terrestrial animals are much more difficult to determine when they went extinct because there is often no bone yard. What we know is when they lived and now they don't.

It is a naive argument to look at an estimated date for a flood or extinction and the presume a level of precision that no one has the capability to determine. These dates are all best guesses and best estimates.

Did you not see how you refuted your claim with your first sentence? The Lake Missoula floods occurred over a span of quite a few years. It was not one flood. From memory there were on the order of 40 of them. One second:

Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia

"The channeled scablands were scoured by more than 40 cataclysmic floods during the Last Glacial Maximum and innumerable older cataclysmic floods over the last two million years."

" A series of floods occurring over the period of 18,000 to 13,000 years ago swept over the landscape when the ice dam broke. "

So thought there is evidence of older ones the most obvious evidence is for the more recent ones. And that was over a period of 5,000 years. If there was one global flood we should see one event that overwrites others. That is not seen. We see different events at different times and though massive at times always within limits.

On a related note have you ever heard the urban myth of a person waking up in a bathtub filled with ice in a seedy motel missing a kidney. Do you know why that is a myth?

 

[ZNP]

Did you not see how you refuted your claim with your first sentence? The Lake Missoula floods occurred over a span of quite a few years. It was not one flood. From memory there were on the order of 40 of them. One second:

Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia

"The channeled scablands were scoured by more than 40 cataclysmic floods during the Last Glacial Maximum and innumerable older cataclysmic floods over the last two million years."

" A series of floods occurring over the period of 18,000 to 13,000 years ago swept over the landscape when the ice dam broke. "

So thought there is evidence of older ones the most obvious evidence is for the more recent ones. And that was over a period of 5,000 years. If there was one global flood we should see one event that overwrites others. That is not seen. We see different events at different times and though massive at times always within limits.

On a related note have you ever heard the urban myth of a person waking up in a bathtub filled with ice in a seedy motel missing a kidney. Do you know why that is a myth?

The only claim I have made is that to fulfill the requirements of the Noah flood you need several criteria filled, nowhere did I claim there could not have been other floods similar in magnitude. So stating that the Missoula floods were a number of floods over a tens of thousands of years does not in any way dispute any of that.

There are 3 key components

1. Worldwide flood -- there are no meteorological events that are worldwide. Instead hurricanes, typhoons, tsunamis are all localized. However, the meteorite striking the Indian ocean, vaporizing water that then goes into the stratosphere, circling the earth and then returning as rain would be a truly worldwide event.

2. Flood coming over the top of the highest mountains 40 feet deep. This has been confirmed.

3. A boat that holds lots of animals preventing them from becoming extinct. I am not aware of any physical evidence of this boat yet though I have seen various claims to evidence including photographs. There is also significant evidence of some event that caused massive extinctions on 6 continents virtually simultaneously.

Now I am not aware of any mathematical models that can be used to predict how much water went into the stratosphere or how long it would take for this water to return as precipitation.

I am also not aware of any techniques that we have that could predict these events to a precise year, even to a precise decade. Requiring this proof is bogus because scientists don't have the ability to do that.

At the moment the evidence we have is that the description given in Noah's account or many other accounts is plausible.