Thief Verses Disprove Rapture

[timothyu]

What are the odds that the kings of the earth are the earth bound elohim spiritual adversaries of the Father? Spirit battling spirit.

 

[Dale]

Hi Dale,

The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.

The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....

Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart I made may also be helpful.


View attachment 359065

That really dosn't help. It tells us that it is God's purpose to destroy these evil, destructive armies and whoever is leading them. That doesn't tell us what the plans of these earthly, demon-driven kings are.

 

[timothyu]

That doesn't tell us what the plans of these earthly, demon-driven kings are.

Peace on earth and goodwill towards men? (for a price?)

 

[Douggg]

That really dosn't help. It tells us that it is God's purpose to destroy these evil, destructive armies and whoever is leading them. That doesn't tell us what the plans of these earthly, demon-driven kings are.

Dale, you don't mention any verses in your above post, so I really don't understand what you mean.

Revelation 19:19 indicates that the kings of the earth in Revelation 16:16 gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army.

Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Dale]

Shock and Awe: the Lord’s Day of Wrath:
How bad will the Lord’s response to the attack of Psalm 83 be?

When the sun explodes out a massive CME…. Isaiah 30:26, Psalms 50:1-3

When the Arm of the Lord descends in anger…..Isaiah 30:30, Zephaniah 3:8

When He flashes lightning and fiery coals onto the earth. Deut. 32:22, Psalm 18:13-14

When the Day comes, burning like a furnace. Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

Most people have no conception of the worldwide devastation that will be caused by the hit upon the earth by the Lord’s fiery Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 29:6 What is prophesied will be so shocking, so terrifying, that it is impossible for us to really comprehend and only when it happens, will we realise the full extent of the damage done to the world and our modern infrastructure.

There has never been a comparable natural disaster in recorded history. The nearest to it may be the continuous winters of 1883-87, caused by the ash clouds from Krakatoa, or some recent tsunamis. Only Noah’s flood really compares, but fortunately this time we have God’s promise to never again destroy man and animals so extensively. Genesis 9:16 Many people will die, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 34:3, but most will survive.

As the survivors come out from under whatever shelter they have found, Isaiah 2:20-21, Revelation 6:15, there will be little, if any light for weeks or months. Amos 5:20, Zephaniah 1:15 Most buildings will be destroyed by earthquake and fire, Isaiah 24:18, Zephaniah 3:8 and huge tsunamis will wipe out all coastal cities and towns. Jeremiah 51:42, Amos 9:6

Normal mains electricity supply will not be restored for years. Only small generators will be able to supply power and these will soon run out of fuel, as will all motor transport. Line telephone systems and radio communication may be set up fairly quickly, but mobile phones and internet may never be re-established.

The world will slowly recover and in order to regain control and normal services, a 10 region One World Government will be organised. Daniel 7:23-24 However, those who have maintained their faith and trust in the Creator God during this time of testing have the promises of His redemption and their gathering into all of the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 30:3, Isaiah 35, Psalms 107, Zechariah 10:8, Hosea 11:10-11, Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 49:8-23, Jeremiah 23:3-4, Psalms 69:35-36, Colossians 1:11-12, Revelation 7:9-14

Keras,
Do you ever reply without changing the subject? You claim that there will be a massive solar flare that will destroy much of the world. Not one of the verses you cite says anything about fire coming out of the sun.
All you do is change the subject to your favorite idea.

 

[Dale]

The like a thief verses don't disprove the Rapture, but the like a thief phrase is used to emphasize the surprise happening of different events.

1. the Rapture event.
2. the beginning of the day of the Lord.
3. the appearance of the Son of Man in heaven (Revelation 16:15) that causes the reaction for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Hi Dale,

The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.

The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....

Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart I made may also be helpful.


View attachment 359065

Doug,

You keep mentioning the rapture. Your charts are useless because they start with a “rapture,” something not found in the Bible. Dispensationalists/Rapturists have publicized the image of crumpled clothes on the sidewalk for decades. By the 1970’s few had not heard this idea. There is no such image in the Bible. Think about that.

In Post #10 you say that the thief verses refer to “the surprise happening of different events.” These verses point to the Second Coming. Until recently no one thought otherwise. You simply take them to refer to whatever you want to bring up. The Bible isn’t meant to be read that way.

 

[Longing to kneel]

There are several verses in the New Testament where Jesus is compared to a thief in that He will come, return from Heaven, at an unexpected time. Jesus speaks of himself this way in Matthew and Luke, and Paul and Peter make the same point in the Epistles. There are two more thief verses in Revelation. Why does this matter?

There is no possibility that these thief verses are a warning that some will be “left behind” at a rapture separate from the Second Coming. The last thief verse is too close to the coming of Christ at the end of Revelation. The last thief verse is Revelation 16:15 and Christ comes as the rider on a white horse in Revelation 19:11.

Revelation 16:15 comes just before the Seventh Bowl is poured out. To put this in perspective, in Revelation we have the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets and then the Seven Bowls. Six Seals are opened in Chapter 6 and the Seventh Seal unleashes the Seven Trumpets. The Seven Trumpets sound in Chapters Eight to Eleven. After Revelation 16:15, the Seventh Bowl is poured out two verses later in verse 17. The Beast and the False Prophet arise in Chapter 13.

The whole idea of the Rapture is that the Second Coming is split into two parts, a secret flyover, and the public Second Coming. Jesus would take His followers out of this world in the secret flyover to spare them the reign of the Beast. If that was going to happen it would have to happen long before Revelation 16:15.

The thief verses are a series of warnings that the return of Christ from Heaven will be unexpected, many will be surprised. Dispensationalists tell me that after the Rapture the earth will be in a new dispensation. There will be no church and no Holy Spirit. I guess that means that the Holy Spirit will not be active. Yet in Revelation 16:15 we see the same warning that Jesus gave in Matthew 24, the apocalyptic chapter in Matthew, that Jesus will come as a thief. This warning must be conveyed to the church by the Holy Spirit.

See Post #2 for a list of thief verses.

I appreciate your detailed analysis, I believe the Scriptures provide a basis for the rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. Let me address your points:

1. "Thief in the Night" Imagery:
The "thief" analogy emphasizes the suddenness and unpredictability of Christ's return. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 states:
"For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief."
This passage distinguishes between believers, who are prepared, and unbelievers, who are caught off guard. This aligns with the rapture being a separate event that removes the church before the tribulation. The warning to stay vigilant applies to those awaiting Christ’s return, not necessarily to a post-tribulation audience.


2. Revelation Timeline:
The placement of Revelation 16:15 near the end of the tribulation does not preclude a pre-tribulation rapture. The Book of Revelation is not strictly chronological—it often revisits themes from different perspectives. The warning in Revelation 16:15 could apply to those who come to faith during the tribulation, as many will turn to Christ after the church has been raptured (see Revelation 7:14).


3. Role of the Holy Spirit:
Dispensational theology does not assert that the Holy Spirit ceases to exist or act during the tribulation. Instead, it teaches that the Spirit's role in indwelling the church (as seen in John 14:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 3:16) changes. After the rapture, the Spirit continues to convict, guide, and empower tribulation believers, which explains the warning in Revelation 16:15.


4. Separation of Events:
The rapture and the Second Coming serve different purposes. In the rapture, Christ comes for His church (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), while at the Second Coming, He comes with His saints (Revelation 19:14, Jude 1:14-15). This distinction supports the idea of two events rather than one combined return.



In conclusion, the "thief" warnings emphasize preparedness for Christ’s return, but they do not exclude the possibility of a pre-tribulation rapture. The warnings in Revelation likely address tribulation saints, and the timeline of Revelation is flexible enough to accommodate a pre-tribulation rapture alongside the Second Coming.

 

[keras]

Not one of the verses you cite says anything about fire coming out of the sun.

Isaiah 30:26a The sun will shine with seven times it normal brightness, like 7 days in one and the Moon shall shine [reflect it] as brightly as the sun.
Psalms 50:1-4, Joel 2:2, also tell us how the sun must be involved.

Also, a CMe is the only natural event that can literally fulfil all the vividly described effects of the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath.

 

[keras]

The "thief" analogy emphasizes the suddenness and unpredictability of Christ's return.

This is a fundamental error of the rapture to heaven believers.
You cite 1 Thess 5, but in 1 Thess 4:16, we are told the Lord Jesus will Return accompanied by a shout from an Archangel and the Trumpet call of God.....
Also; Revelation makes clear that from the day the 'beast', - Anti-Christ desecrates the Temple, and the glorious Return, will be exactly 1260 days.

at the Second Coming, He comes with His saints (Revelation 19:14, Jude 1:14-15).

Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven accompanied Hm......
Jude 1 refers to angels, not humans. Proved by Matthew 16:27

The rapture theory is a false teaching and cannot ever happen. We must endure until the end.

 

[Dale]

I appreciate your detailed analysis, I believe the Scriptures provide a basis for the rapture as a distinct event from the Second Coming. Let me address your points:

1. "Thief in the Night" Imagery:
The "thief" analogy emphasizes the suddenness and unpredictability of Christ's return. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 states:
"For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief."
This passage distinguishes between believers, who are prepared, and unbelievers, who are caught off guard. This aligns with the rapture being a separate event that removes the church before the tribulation. The warning to stay vigilant applies to those awaiting Christ’s return, not necessarily to a post-tribulation audience.


2. Revelation Timeline:
The placement of Revelation 16:15 near the end of the tribulation does not preclude a pre-tribulation rapture. The Book of Revelation is not strictly chronological—it often revisits themes from different perspectives. The warning in Revelation 16:15 could apply to those who come to faith during the tribulation, as many will turn to Christ after the church has been raptured (see Revelation 7:14).


3. Role of the Holy Spirit:
Dispensational theology does not assert that the Holy Spirit ceases to exist or act during the tribulation. Instead, it teaches that the Spirit's role in indwelling the church (as seen in John 14:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 3:16) changes. After the rapture, the Spirit continues to convict, guide, and empower tribulation believers, which explains the warning in Revelation 16:15.


4. Separation of Events:
The rapture and the Second Coming serve different purposes. In the rapture, Christ comes for His church (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), while at the Second Coming, He comes with His saints (Revelation 19:14, Jude 1:14-15). This distinction supports the idea of two events rather than one combined return.



In conclusion, the "thief" warnings emphasize preparedness for Christ’s return, but they do not exclude the possibility of a pre-tribulation rapture. The warnings in Revelation likely address tribulation saints, and the timeline of Revelation is flexible enough to accommodate a pre-tribulation rapture alongside the Second Coming.

Former Addict: “The Book of Revelation is not strictly chronological—it often revisits themes from different perspectives.”

This is true, Revelation is not strictly chronological.

Former Addict: “3. Role of the Holy Spirit: Dispensational theology does not assert that the Holy Spirit ceases to exist or act during the tribulation.”

In my experience,, Dispensational theology does teach the complete absence of the Holy Spirit following the rapture. I see this as contradicting basic Christian doctrine.

<< In II Thes. 2:7 it is stated: "The mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way." This is a description of the work of the Holy Spirit as He restrains and hinders the development of the power of evil. >>

From the book Satan, L.S. Chafer (1909)
Chapter IV - This Age and the Satanic System

Chafer, Lewis Sperry. The Collected Works of Lewis Sperry Chafer - Seven books in one . Jawbone Digital. Kindle Edition.

The passage he is talking about:

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendour of his coming.
II Thessalonians 2:7-8 NIV

Dispensationalists must be wrong about who the “restrainer” or “one who holds it back” is.

 

[Dale]

Isaiah 30:26a The sun will shine with seven times it normal brightness, like 7 days in one and the Moon shall shine [reflect it] as brightly as the sun.
Psalms 50:1-4, Joel 2:2, also tell us how the sun must be involved.

Also, a CMe is the only natural event that can literally fulfil all the vividly described effects of the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath.

Keras, none of these verses say what you want them to say.

The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the LORD binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.
Isaiah 30:26 NIV

This is not about a catastrophe, not about judgment. Instead the prophet tells us that God “binds up the bruises” and “heals the wounds” of the people. The sun shines “seven times brighter” because it is a time of spiritual enlightenment. In New Testament terms, this is the Millenium. You confuse light from the sun with heat from the sun, not the same thing.

Ps. 50:1 The Mighty One, God, the LORD, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to the place where it sets.
Ps. 50:2 From Zion, perfect in beauty, God shines forth.
Ps. 50:3 Our God comes and will not be silent; a fire devours before him, and around him a tempest rages.
Ps. 50:4 He summons the heavens above, and the earth, that he may judge his people:

The “rising of the sun” is in verse 1 and the “fire devours” in verse 3. The fire is a sign of God’s power of judgment, but it does not come from the sun. The rising and setting of the sun simply marks time.


Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand —
a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was of old nor ever will be in ages to come.
Joel 2:1-2 NIV

There is no fire here. Judgment comes in the form of “a large and mighty army,” an army of foreigners.

I may not bother to answer these claims in the future.

 

[keras]

I may not bother to answer these claims in the future.

You won't need to try to guess what they really mean, as their fulfilment will do that.

There is no fire here. Judgment comes in the form of “a large and mighty army,” an army of foreigners.

Joel 2, is quite clear; what is coming is LIKE an army.. It is described in verse 3 as: devouring fire before and leaping flames behind.
Something which can and will be caused by a natural event.

Your attempts to spiritualize Prophecy, simply leaves you in the dark.

 

[Douggg]

You keep mentioning the rapture. Your charts are useless because they start with a “rapture,” something not found in the Bible.

The rapture/resurrection verses are in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

For believers who are alive at the time of the rapture/resurrection event.... Jesus said in Luke 21:28, to look up our redemption draws nigh,
And then Jesus begins to give the parable of the fig tree generation. We are that generation. Our redemption is the redemption of our bodies as our souls have already been redeemed by believing in Jesus.

Luke 21:
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

 

[Dale]

Hi Dale,

The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.

The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....

Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart I made may also be helpful.


View attachment 359065

Doug: “The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.”

This doesn’t work out. My understanding is that at a time of great international conflict, Jesus will return in time to prevent the world from being destroyed in a nuclear war. Also, God will not allow Israel to be destroyed. When armies come against Israel and Israel is unable to defend itself, Jesus will return if that is what it takes to protect Israel. These two things could happen at the same time.

Let me explain why your scenario doesn’t add up.

See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a
whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his
rebuke with flames of fire.
Isaiah 66:15 NIV

There is nothing here about any army called out by the kings of the earth to fight against God. It is “the Lord” who comes to deliver judgment.

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in thewest, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:27 NIV

This is from the apocalyptic chapter in Matthew. It tells us that the Second Coming will be sudden, like a lightning bolt, and visible to everyone. It looks like there is no possibility that Jesus will return to earth without the kings of the earth realizing that He is all-powerful.

 

[Dale]

Hi Dale,

The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.

----------------------------------------------------------------

In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.

The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....

Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart I made may also be helpful.


View attachment 359065

You seem to think I need educating on the end of Revelation. Let me offer you a reminder of what we find near the end of Daniel.

“He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not
been given the honour of royalty. He will invade the kingdom
when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through
intrigue. Daniel 11:21 NIV

This “contempible person” is the Antichrist, also called the King of the North in Daniel.

The king of the North will return to his own country with
great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy
covenant. He will take action against it and then return to his
own country.
Daneil 11:28 NIV

“His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress
and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the
abomination that causes desolation.
Daniel 11:31 NIV

I’m not sure there will be animal sacrifices when this takes place, but this Antichrist will “abolish” religious services.

“The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify
himself above every god and will say unheard-of things
against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time
of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must
take place.
He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the
one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will
exalt himself above them all.
Daniel 11:36-7 NIV

This person exalts himself and magnifies himself “above every god,” which is what makes him an Antichrist.

He will also invade the Beautiful Land. ...
Daniel 11:41 NIV

The Beautiful Land is Israel. It is possible that this King of the North/Antichrist will invade Israel more than once. Invasion, withdrawal, new invasion? Light invasion followed by heavy invasion?

But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he
will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.
He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at [Or the sea
and] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end,
and no-one will help him.
Daniel 11:44-45 NIV

It looks like God will allow Israel to endure a painful occupation. When this Antichrist dictator decides to “annihilate” the entire population, he is struck dead. It looks like this happens at the same time as the Second Coming.

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your
people, will arise. ...
Daniel 12:1 NIV

Many scholars believe that Michael is Jesus, at least in this passage.

 

[Douggg]

You seem to think I need educating on the end of Revelation. Let me offer you a reminder of what we find near the end of Daniel.

“He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not
been given the honour of royalty. He will invade the kingdom
when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through
intrigue. Daniel 11:21 NIV

This “contempible person” is the Antichrist, also called the King of the North in Daniel.

The king of the North will return to his own country with
great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy
covenant. He will take action against it and then return to his
own country.
Daneil 11:28 NIV

“His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress
and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the
abomination that causes desolation.
Daniel 11:31 NIV

Dale, those verses are referring to Antiochus IV. His troops placed a statue of Zeus in the temple on his behalf.

 

[Douggg]

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in thewest, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Matthew 24:27 NIV

This is from the apocalyptic chapter in Matthew. It tells us that the Second Coming will be sudden, like a lightning bolt, and visible to everyone.

You are misunderstanding what Jesus meant in Matthew 24:27. He was not referring that His return being as quick as lightning.

But as noticeable as lightning across the sky. Look at verse 26. Jesus is saying don't go acting on some rumor that He has returned and is out in the desert somewhere, or in some secret room at some secret location. Jesus is saying His return is going to be dramatic and the whole world will know it.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Dale]

Dale, those verses are referring to Antiochus IV. His troops placed a statue of Zeus in the temple on his behalf.

I am well aware of Antiochus IV. Consider that near the end of Daniel 12, the last chapter of Daniel we find:

I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what
will the outcome of all this be?”
He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are
closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Daniel 12:8-9 NIV

The Book of Daniel tells us that the prophecy cannot be understood until the end times arrive. Moreover, Jesus tells us that the “desolating abomination” (or “abomination of desolation” in some translations) spoken of by Daniel is still in the future.

[Jesus says,]
And this gospel of the kingdom will be
preached throughout the world as a
witness to all nations, and then the end
will come.
"When you see the desolating
abomination spoken of through Daniel
the prophet standing in the holy place
(let the reader understand),
then those in Judea must flee to the
mountains …
Matthew 24:14-16 NAB

This “desolating abomination” appears in Daniel chapters 9, 11 and 12.

For one week he shall make a firm
compact with the many; Half the week
he shall abolish sacrifice and oblation;
On the temple wing shall be the horrible
abomination until the ruin that is
decreed is poured out upon the horror."
Daniel 9:27 NAB

Armed forces shall move at his
command and defile the sanctuary
stronghold, abolishing the daily sacrifice
and setting up the horrible abomination.
Daniel 11:31 NAB

From the time that the daily sacrifice is
abolished and the horrible abomination
is set up, there shall be one thousand
two hundred and ninety days.
Daniel 12:11 NAB

Some might wonder if something that was still in the future when Jesus delivered the Olivet Discourse could be in our past. Is He talking about the destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Romans in 70 AD? That fits with “those in Judea must flee to the mountains” but it does not fit with Matthew 24:14.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be
preached throughout the world as a
witness to all nations, and then the end
will come.
Matthew 24:14 NAB

Jesus tells us that the Temple or the Temple Mount will be desecrated with a “horrible abomination” after the Gospel is preached all over the world. That certainly had not happened in 70 AD. It has arguably happened in our time, so the stage seems to be set.

There is one more reason that the events in the last chapters of Daniel cannot be limited to the desecration of Antiochus Epiphanes, or Antiochus IV.

He shall pitch the tents of his royal
pavilion between the sea and the
glorious holy mountain, but he shall
come to his end with none to help him.
Daniel 11:45 NAB

Daniel tells us that this King of the North will pitch his tents between the Mediterranean Sea and the Temple Mount. We are told that he will meet his end abruptly while on a military campaign in the Holy Land. What happened to Antiochus Epiphanes? He fled Palestine after his army was defeated. He died of disease in 164 BC, age 51, in Tabae (or Gabae), present day Isfahan, in Persia. Isfahan is now the third largest city in Iran, and is about 270 miles south of Teheran. This is found in the Encyclopedia Britannica, 2009, and Wikipedia says the same thing. Christian theologians were aware of where Antiochus died hundreds of years ago.

The Book of Daniel tells us that this King of the North/Antichrist will die while attacking Israel, but Antiochus Epiphanes died in Iran. The King of the North described in Daniel 11:45 cannot refer to Antiochus Epiphanes. Some earlier passages in Daniel may refer to Antiochus Epiphanes. We must conclude that many of the prophecies in the last chapters of Daniel have not yet been fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what
will the outcome of all this be?”
He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are
closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Daniel 12:8-9 NIV

The Book of Daniel tells us that the prophecy cannot be understood until the end times arrive. Moreover, Jesus tells us that the “desolating abomination” (or “abomination of desolation” in some translations) spoken of by Daniel is still in the future.

I agree.

This “desolating abomination” appears in Daniel chapters 9, 11 and 12.

For one week he shall make a firm
compact with the many; Half the week
he shall abolish sacrifice and oblation;
On the temple wing shall be the horrible
abomination until the ruin that is
decreed is poured out upon the horror."
Daniel 9:27 NAB

Armed forces shall move at his
command and defile the sanctuary
stronghold, abolishing the daily sacrifice
and setting up the horrible abomination.
Daniel 11:31 NAB

The Daniel 11:31 abomination of desolation precedes the time of the end. It prefigures what the time of the end abomination of desolation will be - i.e. a statue image placed in a holy place.

The Book of Daniel tells us that this King of the North/Antichrist will die while attacking Israel, but Antiochus Epiphanes died in Iran. The King of the North described in Daniel 11:45 cannot refer to Antiochus Epiphanes.

I agree that Antiochus is not the Antichrist person. I disagree that the Antichrist is one of the series of the kings of the north.

Daniel 11:36-45 is when the person is in his beast-king stage. Daniel 11:45, on the temple mount, between the seas, the beast-king will meet his end - not attacking Israel - but standing in defiance to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Dale]

Hi Dale,

The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.

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In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.

The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....

Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart I made may also be helpful.


View attachment 359065

They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will
overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings
— and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Revelation 17:14 NIV

Doug,

You seem to think that the chosen followers who come with Jesus at the Second Coming are those who were raptured, that a rapture is needed to have these “faithful followers.” This isn’t true at all.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls
of those who had been slain because of the word of God and
the testimony they had maintained.
They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord,
holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and
avenge our blood?”
Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were
told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellowservants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Revelation 6:9-11 NIV

These passage tells us of the martyrs who are “under the altar,” under Christ’s protection. These Christians did not arrive in heaven in a rapture, they came to heaven by martyrdom. You can’t have it both ways.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the
wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made
herself ready.
Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
(Finelinen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)
Revelation 19:7-8 NIV

These martyrs are given a white robe in Revelation 6:11, so they are clearly among those invited to the wedding of the Lamb. They are not the only ones. The following passage tells us about an entirely different multitude of Christians before God’s throne in heaven.

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude
that no-one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and
language, standing before the throne and in front of the
Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm
branches in their hands.
Revelation 7:9 NIV

The martyrs of Revelation 6 and the “great multitude” of Revelation 7 can easily account for the “faithful followers” who accompany the coming of the Lamb in Revelation 17:4 and also in this passage.

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the
Word of God.
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white
horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:13-14 NIV

There is absolutely no reason that a “rapture” is necessary to provide the soldiers for these “armies of heaven.” They are accounted for without it.