They partied drinking grape juice?

[Spiderlashes]

I have a friend who belongs to a Christian denomination that is very much against the consumption of alcohol. One sip even is sinful. So I mentioned to her how there are many places in the Bible where wedding guests and other people drink wine. And she said that if I were to research the Greek vulgate, I'd see that it was actually grape juice.

OK, so I said that there were also places in the Bible where people drank wine (or, ahem, grape juice) and they got intoxicated (sleeping with their father, etc.). I asked her if the wine was mere grape juice, how could they become intoxicated? And she said that in those instances WHERE BAD HAPPENS it's actually alcoholic wine.

So I asked her what was Jesus drinking during the last supper? And she said it was grape juice; all Jesus ever drank was water and grape juice. Yes, she said this is the official teaching of her church.

Does anyone have any clue about this grape juice translation? Is there any basis for it, howver remote?

I have another friend, belonging to a different Christian denomination, who is equally against alcohol. But she explains it this way: during Jesus' time in the desert, people needed wine to prevent dehydration since electrolyte drinks and such had not been invented. OK, so what about water, I asked. Why couldn't they drink water? And she said it wasn't safe to drink because it was all contaminated by livestock.

What's going on here??? Why are churches teaching this? Is there any Biblical basis?

 

[KingdomScribe]

When someone tries to claim that "wine" in the Bible was grape juice, skepticism is an excellent response.

For several reasons. But first -- what the Bible clearly and repeatedly does prohibit is drunkenness -- not simply the drinking of wine.

But for those who desperately want to preach against all drinking of alcoholic liquids, the lack of any verses against drinking wine doesn't stop them... They just make up some "history" about "wine" being "grape juice".

Rubbish!

[1] Grape juice? Think about how to make and keep grape juice from fermenting.

God's the One Who designed the grape. Curiously, the grape has a whitish "dust" on the outside before being washed. This "dust" is yeast. In other words, God designed the grape so that when it's crushed to get the juice out, it mixes with the yeast and instantly starts fermenting.

(Wow! What a blooper THAT was! I mean, if He didn't want us to drink wine, but we can't even get to the juice without starting the fermentation process... Somebody better take God to a Chemistry 101 class...)

So -- you've got fermenting wine the instant you crush the juice out of the grape. So what do you have to do to keep it "grape juice" and not let it turn into wine?

Either refrigerate it, or put the juice through a pressure-canning process.

Let's see -- Jesus lived 2,000 years ago, and the first refrigerator was invented in the 1800's? I guess they couldn't prevent the process of fermentation with refrigeration.

How about canning the juice? Lets see -- the process of canning was invented during Napoleon's military campaigns a century or so ago -- no canning in Jesus' day.

If your friend insists that "wine" was unfermented grape juice, ask how they kept it from fermenting when none of those processes were known in Jesus' day. It's not that grape juice didn't exist in Jesus' day -- it's just that grape juice was grape juice for only 2 or 3 days...then it was fermenting.

[2] In Jesus' day, people typically diluted wine (Greek: oinos) -- 2 to 3 parts water to 1 part wine. It was difficult to get drunk. "Strong wine" referred to wine mixed in a 1 to 1 ratio. You could get drunk on that but it wasn't easy. They didn't have concentrated (hard) liquors like we do today.

Everyone drank this diluted wine on a daily basis unless they made religious vows (Nazarite, etc.) to drink only water. Drinking water straight was dangerous since wine (even a 3 to 1 ration) would kill the bacteria. Paul's counsel to Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach sake undoubtedly stemmed from Timothy (for whatever reason) drinking straight water and getting intestinal troubles from it.

BTW -- if "wine" truly was "grape juice", mixing it with water wouldn't kill bacteria... It's just a silly idea.

[3] Last point: At the wedding in Cana, after Jesus made wine and took it to the master of festivities, they declared it superior to any of the earlier wines they'd drank in the first two days of the wedding feast.

Excuse me... You're at a wedding party -- they're all drinking grape juice... where in the ancient world anywhere at anytime in any culture did partiers at a wedding feast drink wine?

And these people -- used to partying with alcoholic wine -- drank Jesus' wine and declared it to be better than any of the previous wine...

Maybe you've never been around people drinking alcoholic wine -- but if they run out and you substitute the best Welch's...everyone notices!



KingdomScribe

P.S. Remember -- the Bible teaches moderation in all things and prohibits drunkenness, but nowhere does it prohibit the drinking of wine outside of religion prohibitions (Nazarite vows, etc.) ks

 

[Jerrysch]

I have a friend who belongs to a Christian denomination that is very much against the consumption of alcohol. One sip even is sinful. So I mentioned to her how there are many places in the Bible where wedding guests and other people drink wine. And she said that if I were to research the Greek vulgate, I'd see that it was actually grape juice.

OK, so I said that there were also places in the Bible where people drank wine (or, ahem, grape juice) and they got intoxicated (sleeping with their father, etc.). I asked her if the wine was mere grape juice, how could they become intoxicated? And she said that in those instances WHERE BAD HAPPENS it's actually alcoholic wine.

So I asked her what was Jesus drinking during the last supper? And she said it was grape juice; all Jesus ever drank was water and grape juice. Yes, she said this is the official teaching of her church.

Does anyone have any clue about this grape juice translation? Is there any basis for it, howver remote?

I have another friend, belonging to a different Christian denomination, who is equally against alcohol. But she explains it this way: during Jesus' time in the desert, people needed wine to prevent dehydration since electrolyte drinks and such had not been invented. OK, so what about water, I asked. Why couldn't they drink water? And she said it wasn't safe to drink because it was all contaminated by livestock.

What's going on here??? Why are churches teaching this? Is there any Biblical basis?

You are correct in thinking that there is no Biblical basis for not drinking wine. And you are right in thinking that wine is fermented. Without intervention all juice with sugar in it will become fermented over a short time! However, Paul spoke of the underlying problem which is behind this whole issue.Romans 14 deals directly with this issue; 1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

14I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


Having said this, is it necessary that you do not drink wine at all?I think not,but do not drink in the presence of your friends to whom it causes trouble. And this do for their sake, that you might not cause them to stumble.

I have found argueing on this point is also not something which leads to blessing.

 

[KingdomScribe]

I have found argueing on this point is also not something which leads to blessing.

Excellent!

Also, Romans 14 --

14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

And Paul's refusal to quarrel over the wrong things...

1 Cor 11

16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

And...

2 Tom 2

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.
16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
17 and their talk will spread like gangrene.

And the marvelous focus of or our faith (that Precious Good News and Salvation which God has placed within us...)

1Tim 6

20 O Timothy, guard the Depoisit which has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”
21* which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

KingdomScribe