They Call It Roman

[LittleLambofJesus]

So you are your own pope.

I get it. You have your own infallible interpretation of scripture.

Good luck with that.

That is what we have Pastors and the Orthodox have bishops for.

 

[mont974x4]

*Please leave a message after the beep. Pope Jay will return your call later. He is out buying beer and buffalo wings for communion tonight*

 

[Albion]

1. His Church is not limited to rome

The Roman Church has members around the globe, but I think you mean Christ's Church is not limited to the one denomination headed by the pope. If so, you're right and that's quite in accord with scripture.

2. His Chirch is built upon Himself..not pete

He is the head of the Church. Peter was given by Christ the responsibility to reach the first great wave of converts, which was done in Pentecost Sunday...so in that way, Peter built up the Church. That has no connection to church politics today, though.

3. We are all able, and should be willing, to forgive sins...no popes need apply

Well, the Bible does advise us to confess to one another and to forgive one another.

 

[mont974x4]

The Roman Church has members around the globe, but I think you mean Christ's Church is not limited to the one denomination headed by the pope. If so, you're right and that's quite in accord with scripture.



He is the head of the Church. Peter was given by Christ the responsibility to reach the first great wave of converts, which was done in Pentecost Sunday...so in that way, Peter built up the Church. That has no connection to church politics today, though.



Well, the Bible does advise us to confess to one another and to forgive one another.

That's true, but not for the absolution of sins or getting a penance to-do list. It is to hold eachother accountable/bear eachothers burdens.

We don't need a pope or special clergyman for that, we just need brothers and sisters to come along side us.

 

[Albion]

That's true, but not for the absolution of sins or getting a penance to-do list.

That's certainly correct. The assigned penance is without scriptural basis, but even the churches which engage in that say it's just a gesture and has no actual connection to being forgiven.

to hold eachother accountable/bear eachothers burdens.

IMO, it actually does mean to confess and forgive each other.

 

[mont974x4]

That's certainly correct. The assigned penance is without scriptural basis, but even the churches which engage in that say it's just a gesture and has no actual connection to being forgiven.



IMO, it actually does mean to confess and forgive each other.

There certainly is that aspect to it, but we should not confuse repentance with confession.

I may confess to a brother that I have said something against him and seek his forgiveness....or he may call me on it if he chooses. Ultimately forgiveness and restoration of the relationship is the goal.

We are told to forgive so that we will be forgiven by God. HOlding grudges is a sin.


Repentance, with the goal of the absolution/remittence of sins, is between the sinner and God....not the sinner and another man.

 

[JamesBellisario]

The term Roman is used to refer to the Roman Rite of the Church, in which the Pope is the Patriarch of. As far as referring to the whole Catholic Church as Roman, this is incorrect.


James Bellisario
catholicchampion.com

 

[Albion]

The term Roman is used to refer to the Roman Rite of the Church, in which the Pope is the Patriarch of. As far as referring to the whole Catholic Church as Roman, this is incorrect.


James Bellisario
catholicchampion.com

Oh no. It's quite correct. The Church of Rome, the Roman Church, and the Roman Catholic Church all refer to the same entity. See the dictionary-- Roman Catholic Church: the Christian Church headed by the Pope.

 

[Rick Otto]

Italian Catholics are the most Catholic.

 

[Albion]

Italian Catholics are the most Catholic.

How so (since only about 1 in 50 of them attends church)?

 

[JamesBellisario]

"Oh no. It's quite correct. The Church of Rome, the Roman Church, and the Roman Catholic Church all refer to the same entity. See the dictionary-- Roman Catholic Church: the Christian Church headed by the Pope."

The Pope indeed heads the Roman Catholic Church, as he does the whole Catholic church. Please don't confuse the the two. Go up to a Ukrainian Catholic and ask him if he is Roman Catholic, he will laugh in your face. The fact is there is one Catholic church with many Rites that are united and in communion with the Pope who is also the bishop of Rome. I am sure all of you Protestants already know this, but for the sake of the one or two who don't, I will post it anyways. The Eastern Catholic churches are not Roman Catholic Churches. They have their own canon law and the govern themselves. They are in communion with the Holy See which unites the church in faith and morals. Anyone who says that the Roman church refers to all Catholics is in gross ignorance. One example being John Hagee who constantly shoots his mouth off on TV. Before you comment learn from correct sources. Websters wouldn't be my first choice for learning about the hierarchal structure of the Catholic Church.

 

[Albion]

"Oh no. It's quite correct. The Church of Rome, the Roman Church, and the Roman Catholic Church all refer to the same entity. See the dictionary-- Roman Catholic Church: the Christian Church headed by the Pope."

The Pope indeed heads the Roman Catholic Church, as he does the whole Catholic church. Please don't confuse the the two.

It seems to be only Catholics who are worried sick over this, since they always insist upon describing RITES when no one was talking about that. None of the rest of us have any such problem. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church does have different rites and jurisdictions for certain ethnic groups. Most other churches or denominations do the same. Finis.

 

[Rick Otto]

...and what difference do different "rites" realy make if they all still bow to the same boss?
Its like being a hyphenated-American.
BTW, I agree Hagee is out of control.

 

[Albion]

There certainly is that aspect to it, but we should not confuse repentance with confession.

I suppose not, but the Bible calls on us not only to repent but to confess. It was that which I was speaking of, particularly in view of the opinion others have of there being some supposed obligation for Christians to confess to a priest.

 

[TraderJack]

That's certainly correct. The assigned penance is without scriptural basis, but even the churches which engage in that say it's just a gesture and has no actual connection to being forgiven.

If they are Roman Catholic saying that, they do so in opposition to the dogmatic teachings of Trent on auricular confession and penance, which are two segments of one dogma.

Here is what Trent says:

Council of Trent


FOURTEENTH SESSION

which is the fourth under the Supreme Pontiff, Julius III,
celebrated on the twenty-fifth day of November, 1551

THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE


Though the holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same legate and nuncios of the holy Apostolic See presiding, has in the decree on justification,1 by reason of a certain necessity induced by the affinity of the subjects, given much consideration to the sacrament of penance, yet so great is in our days the number of errors relative to this sacrament, that it will be of no little general benefit to give to it a more exact and complete definition, in which all errors having under the guidance of the Holy Ghost been pointed out and refuted, Catholic truth may be made clear and resplendent, which [truth] this holy council now sets before all Christians to be observed for all time.


CHAPTER I
THE NECESSITY AND INSTITUTION OF THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE

If in all those regenerated such gratitude were given to God that they constantly safeguarded the justice received in baptism by His bounty and grace, there would have been no need for another sacrament besides that of baptism to be instituted for the remission of sins.2 But since God, rich in mercy,3 knoweth our frame,4 He has a remedy of life even to those who may after baptism have delivered themselves up to the servitude of sin and the power of the devil, namely, the sacrament of penance, by which the benefit of Christ's death is applied to those who have fallen after baptism. Penance was indeed necessary at all times for all men who had stained themselves by mortal sin,5 even for those who desired to be cleansed by the sacrament of baptism, in order to obtain grace and justice; so that their wickedness being renounced and amended, they might with a hatred of sin and a sincere sorrow of heart detest so great an offense against God. Wherefore the Prophet says: Be converted and do penance for all your iniquities, and iniquity shall not be your ruin.6 The Lord also said: Except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish;7 and Peter the Prince of the Apostles, recommending penance to sinners about to receive baptism, said: Do penance and be baptized every one of you.8 Moreover, neither before the coming of Christ was penance a sacrament nor is it such since His coming to anyone before baptism. But the Lord then especially instituted the sacrament of penance when, after being risen from the dead, He breathed upon His disciples, and said: Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.9 The consensus of all the Fathers has always acknowledged that by this action so sublime and words so clear the power of forgiving and retaining sins was given to the Apostles and their lawful successors for reconciling the faithful who have fallen after baptism, and the Catholic Church with good reason repudiated and condemned as heretics the Novatians, who of old stubbornly denied that power of forgiving.10 Therefore, this holy council, approving and receiving that perfectly true meaning of the above words of the Lord, condemns the grotesque interpretations of those who, contrary to the institution of this sacrament, wrongly contort those words to refer to the power of preaching the word of God and of making known the Gospel of Christ.

http://www.trosch.org/law/trent-penance.html


On auricular confession, Trent dogmatically teaches the opposite of your answer, treaching that auricular confession is neccessary for salvation:

Can. 6. If anyone denies that sacramental confession was either instituted by divine law or is necessary for salvation; or says that the manner of secretly confessing to a priest alone, which the Catholic Church has always observed from the beginning and still observes, is alien to the institution and the mandate of Christ, and is a human invention: let him be anathema.

Roman Catholics need to learn what their religion truly teaches. Not the unofficial redefinitions of post Vatican II private theologians, but what their religion actually teaches as "infallible dogma", as in the above, which so often they are in disagreement with.



Back to Trent's teaching on penance.

Penance are works you must do "in order to obtain grace and justice"


Paul says Trent teaches works righteousness just as the Pharisees did:

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Yes indeed, Rome preaches a false gospel, which is no good news at all, but is bondage.

IMO, it actually does mean to confess and forgive each other.

Confession is for our benefit in the temporal state, for in confession God cleanses us of all our guilt, relieving that weight in place of joy and peace with a clean conscience. For we have the peace of God because we are at peace with God through Christ's Atoning satisfication for the entirety of our sins, past, present and future.

 

[Albion]

If they are Roman Catholic saying that, they do so in opposition to the dogmatic teachings of Trent on auricular confession and penance, which are two segments of one dogma.

Welcome to the warm and fuzzy 21st Century Church where what Trent had to say doesn't count for much anymore.

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by TraderJack
If they are Roman Catholic saying that, they do so in opposition to the dogmatic teachings of Trent on auricular confession and penance, which are two segments of one dogma.

Welcome to the warm and fuzzy 21st Century Church where what Trent had to say doesn't count for much anymore.

Yep, so much for immutable, "infallible" dogma, eh?

Where are the old days when Rome was clear on everyone but those who are obedient to the pope being saved?

Rome just redefines things so that they can give the appearance of not changing dogma, when everyone but the pew sitting Roman Catholic knows it is a ruse and Rome makes everything up as it goes along.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[Albion]

Rome just redefines things so that they can give the appearance of not changing dogma, when everyone but the pew sitting Roman Catholic knows it is a ruse and Rome makes everything up as it goes along.

Yes. The only thing that cannot change is the claim that nothing changes. Other than that, everything is open to change. Trent, by the way, decreed that the Tridentine Mass was eternal and immutable, but the RCC changed it significantly by Vatican II--yet both are considered to be ecumenical councils infallibly directed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[TraderJack]

Yes. The only thing that cannot change is the claim that nothing changes. Other than that, everything is open to change. Trent, by the way, decreed that the Tridentine Mass was eternal and immutable, but the RCC changed it significantly by Vatican II--yet both are considered to be ecumenical councils infallibly directed by the Holy Spirit.

What was it Jesus said about those who claimed to be speaking for God, who dress as sheep?

Oh yeah, Jesus said:

Matthew 7
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.


Jesus did not warn us about the pagans or atheists.

It's the one's who give the appearance of being sheep that are dangerous.

It was those who make claims to be speaking for God and have the appearance of being sheep, but like the story, "Little Red Riding Hood", "grandma" ain't really "grandma", but a wolf dressed like "grandma" to deceive.

But the Elect are not deceived.