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All the ones not united in like mind like St. Paul says.
Passed.Here's a simple way to test that theory.
The Church is one. failed.
The Church is holy. pass.
The Church is Catholic. failed.
The Church is apostolic. failed.
I have nothing against freedom. Otherwise we wouldn't be free to post rebutalls.
Now, if Rome will renounce the papacy, "unam sanctum", Lateran IV, Trent, Vatican I & II, renounce the Marian dogmas, auricular confession and penance, purgatory, indulgences, praying to Mary and the spirits of the departed and the entire sacerdotal sacramentalist system of salvation, then we can discuss letting the Roman church back into the fold.
No, in reality we, whom you call "protestants" are the True Catholic Church, along with all genuine believers in Christ, the Roman religion is not "The Catholic Church" at all, it is a usurper.
I just don't know how to respond to this rubbish.
BTW we do belive that non-catholics are christians
and part of the invisible church.
As you well know, you can't always believe what you read on the internet.
To Trader Jack,
how do you see the Orthodox Church?
There is only one Catholic Church and everyone knows it's base of operations. Vatican Hill.
As I said, the redefining of words. Rome adopted the catholic adjective in order to make it a noun and applied it to themselves.
The roman church did not exist in the beginning, no matter how many times rome rewrites history to fit its appetite for power.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
ANd yet people disagree on when the Roman Church started.
I wonder why?
Yes and most others are aware the Emperor of Roman catholicism resides in Italy at Fort Vatican.
LLOL [lives in Texas and exclaims "remember the Alamo!"]
Lots of peole want to be Catholic with a Capital "C" but then they deny CC.
Albion said:Since, however, everyone seems to agree that all parties are Christian...and that the word "Roman" is appropriate when speaking of the Church overseen by the Pope...
why don't we just 'bury the hatchet' on this pointless sparring?
I agree, I see this as less of a doctrine thread and more of an etiquette thread.
Roman Catholic, because it is Christian and under the pastorship of the Bishop of RomeNow that those of you of the Roman persuasion have accepted the truth of the appropriate use of "Roman", "Romans", etc, please pass it on to your brethren so they won't be getting upset over nothing.
LLOL [lives in Texas and exclaims "remember the Alamo!"
Roman Catholic, because it is Christian
[/FONT]The Smalcald Articles
Article IV: Of the Papacy.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3] Hence it follows that all things which the Pope, from a power so false, mischievous, blasphemous, and arrogant, has done and undertaken. have been and still are purely diabolical affairs and transactions (with the exception of such things as pertain to the secular government, where God often permits much good to be effected for a people, even through a tyrant and [faithless] scoundrel) for the ruin of the entire holy [catholic or] Christian Church (so far as it is in his power) and for the destruction of the first and chief article concerning the redemption made through Jesus Christ.
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4] For all his bulls and books are extant, in which he roars like a lion (as the angel in Rev. 12 depicts him, [crying out] that no Christian can be saved unless he obeys him and is subject to him in all things that he wishes, that he says, and that he does. All of which amounts to nothing less than saying: Although you believe in Christ, and have in Him [alone] everything that is necessary to salvation, yet it is nothing and all in vain unless you regard [have and worship] me as your god, and be subject and obedient to me. And yet it is manifest that the holy Church has been without the Pope for at least more than five hundred years, and that even to the present day the churches of the Greeks and of many other languages neither have been nor are yet under the Pope. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5] Besides, as often remarked, it is a human figment which is not commanded, and is unnecessary and useless; for the holy Christian [or catholic] Church can exist very well without such a head, and it would certainly have remained better [purer, and its career would have been more prosperous] if such a head had not been raised up by the devil. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6] And the Papacy is also of no use in the Church, because it exercises no Christian office; and therefore it is necessary for the Church to continue and to exist without the Pope. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7] And supposing that the Pope would yield this point, so as not to be supreme by divine right or from Gods command, but that we must have [there must be elected] a [certain] head, to whom all the rest adhere [as their support] in order that the [concord and] unity of Christians may be preserved against sects and heretics, and that such a head were chosen by men, and that it were placed within the choice and power of men to change or remove this head, just as the Council of Constance adopted nearly this course with reference to the Popes, deposing three and electing a fourth; supposing, I say, that the Pope and See at Rome would yield and accept this (which, nevertheless, is impossible; for thus he would have to suffer his entire realm and estate to be overthrown and destroyed, with all his rights and books, a thing which, to speak in few words, he cannot do), nevertheless, even in this way Christianity would not be helped, but many more sects would arise than before. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8] For since men would have to be subject to this head, not from God's command, but from their personal good pleasure, it would easily and in a short time be despised, and at last retain no member; neither would it have to be forever confined to Rome or any other place, but it might be wherever and in whatever church God would grant a man fit for the [taking upon him such a great] office. Oh, the complicated and confused state of affairs [perplexity] that would result! [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9] Therefore the Church can never be better governed and preserved than if we all live under one head, Christ, and all the bishops equal in office (although they be unequal in gifts), be diligently joined in unity of doctrine, faith, Sacraments, prayer, and works of love, etc., as St. Jerome writes that the priests at Alexandria together and in common governed the churches, as did also the apostles, and afterwards all bishops throughout all Christendom, until the Pope raised his head above all. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10] This teaching shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]11] This is, properly speaking to exalt himself above all that is called God as Paul says, 2 Thess. 2, 4. Even the Turks or the Tartars, great enemies of Christians as they are, do not do this, but they allow whoever wishes to believe in Christ, and take bodily tribute and obedience from Christians. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12] The Pope, however, prohibits this faith, saying that to be saved a person must obey him. This we are unwilling to do, even though on this account we must die in God s name. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13] This all proceeds from the fact that the Pope has wished to be called the supreme head of the Christian Church by divine right. Accordingly he had to make himself equal and superior to Christ, and had to cause himself to be proclaimed the head and then the lord of the Church, and finally of the whole world, and simply God on earth, until he has dared to issue commands even to the angels in heaven. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14] And when we distinguish the Pope's teaching from, or measure and hold it against, Holy Scripture, it is found [it appears plainly] that the Pope's teaching, where it is best, has been taken from the imperial and heathen law and treats of political matters and decisions or rights, as the Decretals show; furthermore, it teaches of ceremonies concerning churches, garments, food, persons and [similar] puerile, theatrical and comical things without measure, but in all these things nothing at all of Christ, faith, and the commandments of God. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lastly, it is nothing else than the devil himself, because above and against God he urges [and disseminates] his [papal] falsehoods concerning masses, purgatory, the monastic life, one's own works and [fictitious] divine worship (for this is the very Papacy [upon each of which the Papacy is altogether founded and is standing]), and condemns, murders and tortures all Christians who do not exalt and honor these abominations [of the Pope] above all things. Therefore, just as little as we can worship the devil himself as Lord and God, we can endure his apostle, the Pope, or Antichrist, in his rule as head or lord. For to lie and to kill, and to destroy body and soul eternally, that is wherein his papal government really consists, as I have very clearly shown in many books.
and under the pastorship of the Bishop of Rome
Now that those of you of the Roman persuasion have accepted the truth of the appropriate use of "Roman", "Romans", etc, please pass it on to your brethren so they won't be getting upset over nothing.
Then how can he delegate power outside of Rome?Roman Catholic, because it is Christian and under the pastorship of the Bishop of Rome
No, we deny the Roman Catholic church is "THE Catholic Church" and there is a universe of difference that most Romans miss.
Just don't put Paul in the "back-seat"LLOJ
Because he is the first among equals
Scripture?LLOJ
Because he is the first among equals
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