• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Thessalonians 4 Does Not Teach a Rapture Separate from the Second Coming

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,548
809
Pacific NW, USA
✟166,984.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The rapture of the saints occurs after the resurrection of all mankind at the end of time.
My understanding is that the Gathering of Elect Israel, including the Departed, will take place at the time Israel's "Time of Distress" ends, which will be when Christ Returns.

Paul lumped the Salvation of Elect Israel together with the Salvation of the Elect from all nations. It will take place at the Return of Christ from the clouds, with the angels gathering us up.

I don't think time will ever end for us, since we are creatures created to live in time, or in a progressive way. So, I'm not sure what you mean by the "end of time?"
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,509
1,338
72
Sebring, FL
✟842,695.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat

Over and over, people have tried to tell me that there were Christians in the ancient world who believed in something like the modern notion of “rapture.” I have spent time and energy running these claims down and I have always found them to be false.

You are quoting Thomas Ice, who is associated with Tim LaHaye (Left Behind) and with Liberty University. Liberty University teaches creationism. I’ve read that in science class, LU teaches that Noah had room for dinosaurs on the Ark. If that comes up on a true/false test you have to mark it A true.

The modern idea of “rapture” came out of Dispensationalism. Thomas Ice is a Dispensationalist. I can make no sense out of Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists teach that from time to time, God issues a decree changing His plan of salvation. These are the Dispensations. I don’t believe that. Our God is a God of stability, of constancy. God knows everything and has no need to change His mind. Dispensationalists teach that God did not foresee the need for the church, or the church age. Again, I can make no sense out of this.

I have read one lengthy article by Thomas Ice and I cannot see him as an authority on anything. It’s all just a shell game.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,509
1,338
72
Sebring, FL
✟842,695.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat

Bob Ryan: “The phrase "second coming" is not in the Bible.”



Here is what the Bible does say.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going,
when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.299
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking
into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you
into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen
him go into heaven
.”
Acts 1: 10-11 NIV


That’s pretty clear.
 
Reactions: JulieB67
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,509
1,338
72
Sebring, FL
✟842,695.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Here is a verse which disproves any notion of a “rapture” separate from the Second Coming.

[Peter says]
He [Christ] must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to
restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 3:21 NIV


This rules out any secret flyby where Christ flies over and grabs Christians off the earth. Peter says that Jesus will “remain in heaven” until the time if right to “restore everything.” Jesus will not remove Christians from the world, and then leave an Antichrist oppressing and terrorizing everyone, and persecuting those who become Christians after the “rapture.” When God restores all things, there will not be an Antichrist in power and Satan will not be gathering the nations for war.
 
Reactions: RandyPNW
Upvote 0

johansen

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2023
659
159
37
silverdale
✟64,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
depending on your view points, it is not nessisary for Christ to leave heaven.

as Jesus explains, the reapers at the end of this age, are angels.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,548
809
Pacific NW, USA
✟166,984.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Well, I took a course with Liberty U. and did not find it unChristian or anything like that. Other than that I agree with you.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,509
1,338
72
Sebring, FL
✟842,695.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
depending on your view points, it is not nessisary for Christ to leave heaven.

as Jesus explains, the reapers at the end of this age, are angels.

Johansen, glad to meet you since I don’t think we’ve met before on CF.

No verse says anything about God removing Christians from the earth before the end of the world, The only way to find a “rapture” in the Bible is to separate the Second Coming into two parts. Fervent believers in a “rapture” have told me that separating the Second Coming into two parts is a necessary condition. That’s why Jesus has to “leave heaven” for the “rapture.”

I’m not sure what “reapers” in the Bible you are referring to.



In the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, the tares, the wicked are actually burned first. This happens in Matthew 13:30. The timing is inconsistent with the Dispensationalist belief that Christians will be removed years before the Jesus returns publicly and openly to the earth, to set up His kingdom. Instead, God destroys the wicked first. Then the meek inherit the earth.

Mt. 13:24Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is
like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Mt. 13:25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed
weeds among the wheat, and went away.
Mt. 13:26When the wheat sprouted and formed ears, then the weeds
also appeared.
Mt. 13:27“The owner’s servants came to him and said, `Sir, didn’t you
sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come
from?’
Mt. 13:28“`An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him,
`Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
Mt. 13:29“`No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the
weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
Mt. 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will
tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in

bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’“

Matthew 13:24-30 NIV
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,548
809
Pacific NW, USA
✟166,984.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
depending on your view points, it is not nessisary for Christ to leave heaven.

as Jesus explains, the reapers at the end of this age, are angels.
No, Jesus, the "Son of Man," is said to come back the way he left (Acts 1), which means he comes back to earth. Paul said he leaves heaven when he comes, which means he comes to the earth. This belief originates from Dan 7 where the Son of Man is viewed as coming with the clouds, which means he is initially unseen in heaven but then comes to be revealed to the earth.
 
Upvote 0

johansen

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2023
659
159
37
silverdale
✟64,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Both you and the other seem to presume im a rapture believer.

Paul can say what he wants.

But let us go back to Jesus: The reapers are angels.

The wheat and the tares both grow till the harvest when they are separated by the reapers who are angels..

The wheat which is brought into the barn could indeed be a rapture off this burned planet.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,548
809
Pacific NW, USA
✟166,984.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Both you and the other seem to presume im a rapture believer.
I have no idea what you believe. But this is a Christian forum, so....
Paul can say what he wants.
What does that mean, that you dis Paul?
But let us go back to Jesus: The reapers are angels.
Let's stick with Paul, because Jesus called him.

The point is that the saints are caught up with the help of angels. This happens as fast as an eye sparkles. We are caught up to the clouds in order to return with Jesus. He "returns just as he left." Acts 1.
The wheat and the tares both grow till the harvest when they are separated by the reapers who are angels..

The wheat which is brought into the barn could indeed be a rapture off this burned planet.
The wheat brought into barns is a metaphor. But we have clear-cut doctrine, and don't have to guess what it means.
 
Upvote 0

JulieB67

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
2,115
909
57
Ohio US
✟209,878.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, as it's been already stated, you can't work a pretrib rapture around these verses-

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

He's leaving heaven in 4:16, so that's it. That would be the second time, and therefore as Acts 3:21 tells us the restitution of all things.

And as already been stated as well -he's returning the same way he left.

Acts 1:11 "Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

And from what point did he leave?

Acts 1:12 "Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey."

He will return exactly like he left, to the mount of Olives. Just like the angels stated,


Zechariah 14:1 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."


I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
 
Last edited:
Reactions: RandyPNW
Upvote 0

Richard T

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2018
3,193
2,030
traveling Asia
✟136,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Of course that is your prerogative to discredit Ice, yet the quotes he has from way before Darby are what you should address if you want to further your no rapture views. To bring up other issues Noah's ark and creationism do nothing either for the argument against the rapture.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,548
809
Pacific NW, USA
✟166,984.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It's not just Ice that can be discredited but the entire Pretribulational perspective. There have been isolated examples of Christians in history who have seen a negligible separation between Rapture and 2nd Coming. This was only to indicate that Christians escape the direct outpouring of God's wrath on Antichrist--not to separate the events by a significant length of time.

Throughout Christian history, the Rapture and the 2nd Coming have been portrayed as together with only slight variations, as I indicated. It has largely been the Church continuing to be on earth up to and through the reign of Antichrist.

This discredits Ice, Darby, and any pretribulational view. No pretribulational theology exists prior to Darby that I know of--not of any real significant impact within the history of the Church.

The point about Creationism and the Flood are, I think, relevant, inasmuch as it shows how Fundamentalism can push literalism too far. It means that these people are as subject to error as any other, no matter how fundamental they may be in their Christian beliefs, ie orthodox in their Christian doctrine. But of course, to prove or disprove pretribulationism has nothing to do with those subjects.
 
Reactions: johansen
Upvote 0

Richard T

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2018
3,193
2,030
traveling Asia
✟136,294.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Even if I were to concede that dispensationalism not around prior to Darby, there have been other ideas in the church that have ebbed and flowed at one period or another. Martin Luther's ideas, Reformist theology, and Arminianism to a point are such examples. I personally leave room for alternative possibilities but no eschatological system that I have heard of can explain it all very clearly. Many churches even avoid this topic or skim over it at best. Some seem so dogmatic about their beliefs when I doubt many have had much good teaching on all the alternatives, which I admit that I lack as well.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,509
1,338
72
Sebring, FL
✟842,695.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Here is another verse which disproves the modern notion of “rapture.” Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest:

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that
you protect them from the evil one.
John 17:15 NIV


Jesus tells us that He does not expect to take His disciples and followewrs “out of the world.” Our Saviour, Jesus, does not desire this. Instead, He prays to the Father for all of the disciples to be guided and strengthened to avoid and resist temptation.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,759
8,321
50
The Wild West
✟774,526.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The rapture as most people think of it is basically an innovation of John Nelson Darby, a 19th century Restorationist preacher who developed Premillenial Dispensationalism, and is thus not relevant since it has no basis in the early faith as recorded through Patristic sources.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,548
809
Pacific NW, USA
✟166,984.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Well, that's a very large subject, ie the idea that in Church History there have been some very large disagreements indicating that the persistence of theologies do not prove their credibility or their truthfulness. Both sides of Arminianism and Predestinationism cannot be true. And yet large sections of the Church have believed in either side and for a persistently long time. And groups on both sides have generally been pretty upstanding Christians.

I think there are reasons for this, but that is not our subject presently. Thank you. It's a good point, but requires another thread.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,559
2,846
MI
✟436,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not only that but the Olivet Discourse is based on a combination of Dan 7 and Dan 9. In Dan 7 the Son of Man comes with the clouds to destroy the Man of Sin and to set up God's Kingdom on the earth. That is pretty clearly Postrib.
Where do you get the idea of Daniel 7 saying anything the Son of Man coming with the clouds to destroy the man of sin? The Son of Man coming with the clouds is referenced in Daniel 7:13-14 which I believe is a clear reference to the ascension of Christ because it talks about Him coming with the clouds of heaven and being taken TO the Ancient of Days (God the Father) and brought before Him. Compare Daniel 7:13-14 to Ephesians 1:19-23 and note all the similarities. Paul taught that when Jesus was resurrected and placed at the right hand of the Father He was then "far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named" with the Father putting "all things under His feet" and making Him "head over all things to the church".

I'm talking about the future return of Christ being post-trib. As in occurring after a time of tribulation just before His return. Post-trib has nothing to do with 70 AD as far as I'm concerned.

You know I, as an amillennialist, disagree on what you're saying here, so I'm not sure why you said it to me. It seems that we are each post-trib for completely different reasons.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,559
2,846
MI
✟436,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Incorrect. . .the man of lawlessness must be revealed first (2 Th 2:3-12).
And the mass falling away from the faith (apostasy) as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
 
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,548
809
Pacific NW, USA
✟166,984.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, when I respond to your post I'm really responding to any readers of our exchange. I'm not trying to debate with you or be disagreeable. I'm just stating as fact what I personally believe on the matter of postribulational belief. Yes, we believe in Postrib for different reasons. But there are commonalities as well. I was just pointing out the differences so others may consider my reasons for being Postrib.

I do not take Dan 7 as the Ascension. I've argued this before. It can be viewed that way, yes. I just don't think so.

Same with the interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. There is a noted disagreement on this, particularly between Futurists who are Dispensational and many others.
 
Upvote 0