There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

[Cathulhu]

I agree with you indianx. Rituals don't automatically lead one to spiritual progress. Nevertheless, I still wear my sacred thread, even though I don't do my daily sandhiyavandanams. Even though I can progress spiritually without rituals and symbols(like temples), I like them. Seeing an ancient temple, whether spiritually enlightening or not, gives me a happy feeling, even a sense of pride(not the pride that goes before a fall).

Well, I have seen the "sacred thread ceremony," A very good friend of mine's infact. I must say it was indeed VERY impressive and interesting. Even as a non-believer I can appreciate the rich cultural ties within it.

 

[AlexandraB]

well then there obviously wrong because Jesus talked about it... Unless you are born again you are not going to get into heaven...

Accept Jesus as your saviour now or else your doomed to hell...

Sweetie dear... If I'm in for a Heaven full of folk like you, hell may sometimes appear to be the more attractive and interesting option....

 

[RichardT]

Sweetie dear... If I'm in for a Heaven full of folk like you, hell may sometimes appear to be the more attractive and interesting option....

How can anything possibly make sense without Jesus ?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How can anything possibly make sense without Jesus ?

By using one's own brain. It works for me.

 

[lilithrising]

Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

RichardT,
I spent most of my life as a zealous bible/torah keeper. I grew up christian and understand your religious philosophy. But do you know the history of your religious philosophy?
Being saved or born again has it's origins in the ancient mysteries where one is "born again" into new life and understanding. It's part of an initiation rite or ceremony. With the advent of the new religion of christology into the Roman world of the first century, the ancient cults of the Greek and Romans were assimilated into the new religion. It is all about the inner mystery of enlightenment. OF course when one looks inside of oneself, one desires to have peace with him/herselves and the world around them. That's the ''christ within you experience''. You may believe that it is unique to christianity, but it is not. It is experienced by all those seeking inner peace and a connection to the creator.

You appear to want to discuss the difference between morality and the born again experience. You are assuming that your christianity is more spiritual because it promotes the salvation/born again initiation rite of passage. You would do well to learn more about the history of your beliefs before you try to engage the people in this non-christian forum. Many are ex-christians as myself.

lilithrising

 

[AlexandraB]

How can anything possibly make sense without Jesus ?

Things make a lot more sense to me without Him....

 

[Rae]

Things make a lot more sense to me without Him....

What Alexandra said.

 

[peaceful soul]

origianlly posted by PureX

I disagree.

Christ (God's spirit made flesh) exists within us all by the fact that we are all the expressions of, and recipients of, God's love because we are part of God's creation.

God's spirit is not within all of us; otherwise, we would all be labeled as Christians. Obviously that is not true. God's spirit is only imputed to us through understanding His salvific works and accepting them by putting your faith in them. Acting in faith on Christ's redemptive works is the only thing that brings God's spirit, Holy Spirit, to reside with us. God's spirit can only be imputed to a believing person that has put Christ's teachings to action.

We are all receipients of God's love. God's love is unconditional, but you can refuse His love and choose not to accept salvation through His Son, Jesus.

Creation is God's spirit expressing itself, and the essence of that spirit is love. However, we are not aware of this divine and loving spirit within our own nature when we are born, physically, and so we wrongly believe that we are here alone, and that our purpose is then only to pursue our own pleasure.

I can agree with your first sentence only because God operates out of love regardless of what He does, but that is not the entire package. Love also brings about some unpleasant outcomes to His failing Creation. Love is not without judgement, justice, and righteousness.

We persue our own pleasure because our corrupted nature leads us away from God. This corruption due to sin, leads us not to do the things of God, but to do the things of man, which mainly results in us doing for our self, as you pointed out.

Being "born again" refers to becoming mentally and spiritually awakened to the true nature of our own existence as both expressions of God's love, and as the recipients of God's love in human form.

Being "born again" refers to our acceptance of Christ, which results in an implantation of part of God's own nature within us that guides us rather than our own human nature. In an overly simplistic way, it is God coming to reside in us and leading us to do His will. Through faith in Christ, He leads us to do what our corrupted nature can not do - obey Him in Spirit. Being born again is an expression of God's love, but not in the way that you see it.

And as we become aware of our own true nature and purpose, we understand that we are not here alone, and we no longer wish live for our own pleasure, but rather for the purpose of giving and receiving God's love.

We don't live to recieve God's love. We live to serve God through obedience to His will and nothing more. The result of obedience to God is the fruits of His grace and mercy upon us which are expressions of His love. Love is not the ends of a mean. Love is not a goal.

At least, this is what I believe is the essential message of Christianity, when viewed untainted by institutional religious bias.

Unfortunately you are being biaed by your approach to understanding. You are taking out of Biblical context and making your own rendition of what the text means. This may give you warm feelings of satisfaction, but do little to help you in your understanding of God and love. You can't transfer the spiritual effect of Christ to outside of the Bible. It will only work within the framework of the message of Christ.

 

[chokmah]

How can anything possibly make sense without Jesus ?

You mean, "like the Tanakh"?

Simple, brother.

It makes a LOT more sense without Jesus' interference.

 

[urnotme]

To go off of this, I would bet that if we took one or two people from each of the congregational fora and asked them what the whole basis of christianity was, each would give a different answer. Many would say it most certainly is not being born again.

They may not ccall it that but I think they would say you need to confess jesuss which is being born again.

 

[arunma]

RichardT,
I spent most of my life as a zealous bible/torah keeper. I grew up christian and understand your religious philosophy. But do you know the history of your religious philosophy?
Being saved or born again has it's origins in the ancient mysteries where one is "born again" into new life and understanding. It's part of an initiation rite or ceremony. With the advent of the new religion of christology into the Roman world of the first century, the ancient cults of the Greek and Romans were assimilated into the new religion. It is all about the inner mystery of enlightenment. OF course when one looks inside of oneself, one desires to have peace with him/herselves and the world around them. That's the ''christ within you experience''. You may believe that it is unique to christianity, but it is not. It is experienced by all those seeking inner peace and a connection to the creator.

You appear to want to discuss the difference between morality and the born again experience. You are assuming that your christianity is more spiritual because it promotes the salvation/born again initiation rite of passage. You would do well to learn more about the history of your beliefs before you try to engage the people in this non-christian forum. Many are ex-christians as myself.

lilithrising

Come now, you say all this as if it were true! I've read a few of the so-called mystery religions' mythologies. They have nothing to do with being born again. For example, all of Dionysus' "disciples" (note the deliberate and inappropriate injection of Christian terminology) were mad women. Poor Pentheus had his head placed on a stick and paraded through the city of Thebes by his own mother, all because she was "born again" (or "driven mad" as the original text will show).

The mystery religions have nothing to do with Christianity. To my knowledge, the very notion was first proposed in 1903, in a book called Pagan Christs. It's been around for over a hundred years, and still hasn't seem to have acquired a strong following. These theories rely on biased summaries of pagan myths, of incorrect injection of Christian terminology (baptism, crucifixion, resurrection, etc.) and false parallels drawn between the myths and the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

A sixteen year old usually lacks the ability to research this for himself, and I do not believe that it is right for you to mislead him with false information. If I were to preach the Gospel to a Buddhist of similar age, my action may be called "indoctrination" or "brainwashing." Yet here it goes without any rebuke. Why?

 

[urnotme]

Any Comments ?

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[urnotme]

Not all Christians believe that a person has to experience being "born again" in order to be saved, heck not all Christians believe in the "born again" experience to begin with. To say that being born again is the basis of Christianity is to misrepresent the faith.

Of ccourse we do, That's what happens when you confess jesus. They may not call it that though.

 

[urnotme]

Richard:


Are you aware that "born-again" has a precedence in Judaic thought? It's not a Christian ideal.

Therefore, for you to talk about a lack of understanding regarding "born-again" is rather ironic since you have no idea what the original idea stood for.

What did the origenal idea stand for?

 

[rowena]

Of ccourse we do, That's what happens when you confess jesus. They may not call it that though.

No we don't. Catholics (who are christians) don't believe that a person has to be born again to be saved. From what I understand, Eastern Orthodox Christians also believe the same way. I personally don't have the same understanding of the term that a fundamentalist Baptist might hold, nor do I believe its a necessity for salvation.

 

[urnotme]

It seems , it has not started with christianity and it is a pagan doctrine .
What do you think.
What type of christians believe this ?

The ones that believe the bible. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

 

[JRNetwork]

In order for this to be solved, some one is going to have to explain and define "born-again" in detail. Until then, this is not going anywhere since it seems different people have different thoughts on what "born again" means.

 

[urnotme]

In order for this to be solved, some one is going to have to explain and define "born-again" in detail. Until then, this is not going anywhere since it seems different people have different thoughts on what "born again" means.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;
10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
That's what I consiider being born again. When you confess jesus it is as if you have been bornn again.

 

[chokmah]

What did the origenal idea stand for?

"Born again" comes from performing "teshuvah" in Judaism.

A Jew who becomes apostate must perform teshuvah, and get back on the track of following Torah. When this is done, the Jew is considered "born again".

 

[BuddhistGuy]

Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

I think you have put it perfectly and succinctly. You have stated the exact reason why I am not a Christian anymore. The whole idea of Christianity is based on the direct experience of salvation, without which one's faith is meaningless. Since I never had this experience, never had a feeling of salvation or a direct intimation of "God's grace" I could nto accept Christianity on its own premises. Buddhism, on the other hand, teaches that one will experience less suffering IN SHORT TIME as a result of Buddhsit practice. And so I did: the religion proved itself true to me.