There's one thing that dosn't seem to be understood by non-christians...

[msgstephen]

No. It does not mean that. First off to be "born again" doesn't require that one had been Christian before but then abandoned Christianity and is now coming back. No.

Born again means that one accepts a new Spirit into one's being - the Holy Spirit of God. That the "old" human is abandoned for the "new" human. Now here one gives up trying to gain/earn acceptance by God by one's works if one was trying and, instead, simply accepts acceptance by God. In other words, it means choose to repent of one's wickedness and be made righteous before God on sake of the Blood of the Christ, i.e. by Grace, not by effort.

So while Christians do good works it is not these works that actually save us nor make us acceptable. We live/walk by FAITH.

Some people describe intense "born again" experiences .. others describe quiet and peace. But whatever experience of "born again" a person has, that person's orientation to God and things Spiritual are now different. They are a "new" creation in Christ.

 

[JRNetwork]

What he said.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Being Born again in my opinion is jus a movement within evangelistic Christians. I see no need to be born again. It has nothing to do with God or my beliefs. It is a man made institution and what I think needs to be understood here is that most non-christians get it RichardT...it is shoved at us either our entire lives before becoming pagan of it was shoved at us to convert us.

Perhaps it is safe to say that Christians WISH we didn't get it so they wouldn't have to question their own beliefs. If everyone were Christian it would make life easier for the insecure and unsure.

 

[JRNetwork]

Its a Christian thing, but its not exclusively Christian (as I stated in my previous post)

 

[Budthewiser]

"Jesus is your savior" "born again"

I don't know about you but I never met Jesus and the one person that saved me when I was in a burning house is ME. I ran, not Jesus. And he did not grab my hand.

I don't know about you but I was born once, my mama gave birth to me and that is who I worship and love. My familly.

If you want to be a sheep for others to control you, that is up to you. Once you realise that YOU are in charge of your destiny, you might find that time is better spent focusing on yourself rather than a "country club" for people who wonder what life is about. --Life is you--.

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

"Jesus is your savior" "born again"

I don't know about you but I never met Jesus and the one person that saved me when I was in a burning house is ME. I ran, not Jesus. And he did not grab my hand.

I don't know about you but I was born once, my mama gave birth to me and that is who I worship and love. My familly.

If you want to be a sheep for others to control you, that is up to you. Once you realise that YOU are in charge of your destiny, you might find that time is better spent focusing on yourself rather than a "country club" for people who wonder what life is about. --Life is you--.

As wonderful as that is for you (and it is), it's not for everyone.

Jesus may have never saved you, but he did save me. I had a distinctly religious experience about 2 1/2 years ago that I won't go into depth explaining. However, at the time, I was a die-hard pagan and hated Christianity. I went through a terrible experience that I can't explain to this day. I don't know how close you have ever been to death, but I was almost there. And Jesus came to me, and he gave me hope. In my mind, he saved me.

I went from being a die-hard pagan to being a Christian based off that experience. So, in my instance, it's not about being a sheep. It's about believing what I have seen and experienced on my own and following in my heart what I know to be true for myself.

 

[Budthewiser]

Jesus came to me, and he gave me hope. In my mind, he saved me.

That is the best comment I have ever seen. You know, I believe what I believe but what I now realise is that whatever makes YOU a good person, is good enough for me. If I think that "Jesus" is really an imaginary friend, that does not matter. If people find inspiration and purpose by believing in something, that is the best thing the world can have. Religion prooves that this is the human way.

I believe in myself and that is what saves me, you believe in Jesus that saves you, whatever anyone believes in, I respect that. The idea here is to make sure everyone is OK.

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

That is the best comment I have ever seen. You know, I believe what I believe but what I now realise is that whatever makes YOU a good person, is good enough for me. If I think that "Jesus" is really an imaginary friend, that does not matter. If people find inspiration and purpose by believing in something, that is the best thing the world can have. Religion prooves that this is the human way.

I believe in myself and that is what saves me, you believe in Jesus that saves you, whatever anyone believes in, I respect that. The idea here is to make sure everyone is OK.

Thank you. I have heard a lot of things from people concerning my experience. Even my best friend thinks I am insane. But this was very nice and respectful. Thank you very much.

 

[sidhe]

Christianity is not only about moral behavior , the whole basis of christianity is about being "born-again", since I don't think I can ever prove to you the born-again phenomena , then we are conversing at a different level of experience , and therefore you could never truely understand the born-again phenomena untill you have accepted Jesus as your savior.

If Christianity is not about a moral code, then there could be no moral judgment within it. Thus, one could not say that theft, murder, etc. is wrong. Thus, the fact that there is judgment within Christianity demonstrates that there is a basic moral code.

To me , religion all other religions are about keeping a moral code , and to stick by it ( Tell me if any of my assumptions were wrong... ) , and by keeping the moral code , the God force would accept you into "heaven" ( or karma , w/e )..

Nope. Example: Thelema. No moral code, but a standard of behaviour, which more clearly explained is that if you took two identical actions one could be wrong, and the other correct. It's not about getting into "heaven", but about achieving unity with deity (at least in my interpretation...you get three Thelemites together, you're likely to have them sound like three different religions, and all agree that the other two are also Thelemites). There is no guaranteed way of judging whether an action is "right" or "wrong", save comparing it to deity. And Thelemic deities...well, they're a little different. I'd have a hard time discussing it outside of that...which sucks because I'm working on a paper on that very subject right now.

Tell me if my assumptions are right before I go further into the discussion..

Nope.

I also want to make myself clear in my assumptions and reasonning .. Also , my reasonning comes from the born-again phenomona, which you have not yet experienced... ( I can't prove the born-again phenomena to you , but I want you to understand that my understanding of christianity revolves around this phenomena) .

Similarly, I couldn't explain the phenomenon that follows the Oath of the Abyss without you having experienced it. But I can provide a system for execution of the experience, which is a bit more in depth than "Believe."

 

[JRNetwork]

Mostly all religion is good. However Christians believe that following Christ is the true way to salvation. If Christianity is COMPLETELY wrong, and by extension, Islam and Judaism would have to be wrong, and there is no salvation of any kind, no God or any divine being that will judge us, then we would have lived our lives following a false God, but it ends there. Nothing bad came out of it. Maybe we restricted ourselves and were not as happy as we could have been, or this false belief saved us and made our lives happier. Happier. Isn't that what religion is all about. Leading a happy life.

However I am convinced that God exists, that through the Holy Spirit, Jesus Son of God was born, and that Christianity is a true religion. I try to persuade those who are looking for salvation to consider Christianity, but if you have your mind set on your own religion, then thats up to you.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste jrnetwork,

thank you for the post.

If Christianity is COMPLETELY wrong, and by extension, Islam and Judaism would have to be wrong, and there is no salvation of any kind, no God or any divine being that will judge us, then we would have lived our lives following a false God, but it ends there.

whilst this seems to be correct, it actually is not.

the validity of the Christian tradition has little, if any, impact on the validity of Judaism since they don't teach the same things. though, of course, they share many common teachings.

it would, i suspect, have more of an impact on Islam... but, even there, it wouldn't be all that much of an impact since they, too, teach different things.

in the end, Christianity stands or falls on it's own merits, like all spiritual traditions, in my view.

metta,

~v

 

[chokmah]

Namaste jrnetwork,

thank you for the post.



whilst this seems to be correct, it actually is not.

the validity of the Christian tradition has little, if any, impact on the validity of Judaism since they don't teach the same things. though, of course, they share many common teachings.

it would, i suspect, have more of an impact on Islam... but, even there, it wouldn't be all that much of an impact since they, too, teach different things.

in the end, Christianity stands or falls on it's own merits, like all spiritual traditions, in my view.

metta,

~v

I couldn't agree more, Vaj. It's quite humorous to me when people try to pull in Judaism with the potential issues of Christianity.

As you said, Christianity (and what happens to it) has little to no impact at all on Judaism.

Christianity depends on Judaism and Jewish literature, but vice versa cannot be said with any validity. Therefore, the former (in timeline fashion) doesn't need the latter. The only way Christianity would have an impact on Jews or Judaism is if there was a complete amalgamation. Since that won't be happening, there is no cause for concern.

 

[Abdurrahim]

In the name of The God the most gracious the most merciful




The opening prayer of the liturgy begins:

"O! first genesis of my genesis! First beginning of my beginning! First spirit of the spirit that is within me! .... May it please thee to translate me, who am trammelled by the nature which underlies me, to an immortal genesis .... that I may be born again in spirit; that I may be initiated, and the sacred Spirit may breathe on me!"

From the Pagan regeration

CHAPTER VI DEATH AND NEW BIRTH IN MITHRAISM

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pr/pr08.htm


This born again idea is not a teaching of Prophet Jesus(pbuh)
and borrowed from pagan belief after Jesus(pbuh) like tirinity.
This is the proof

 

[JRNetwork]

In the name of The God the most gracious the most merciful




The opening prayer of the liturgy begins:

"O! first genesis of my genesis! First beginning of my beginning! First spirit of the spirit that is within me! .... May it please thee to translate me, who am trammelled by the nature which underlies me, to an immortal genesis .... that I may be born again in spirit; that I may be initiated, and the sacred Spirit may breathe on me!"

From the Pagan regeration

CHAPTER VI DEATH AND NEW BIRTH IN MITHRAISM

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pr/pr08.htm


This born again idea is not a teaching of Prophet Jesus(pbuh)
and borrowed from pagan belief after Jesus(pbuh) like tirinity.
This is the proof

I think this was already dicussed.

 

[JRNetwork]

I couldn't agree more, Vaj. It's quite humorous to me when people try to pull in Judaism with the potential issues of Christianity.

As you said, Christianity (and what happens to it) has little to no impact at all on Judaism.

Christianity depends on Judaism and Jewish literature, but vice versa cannot be said with any validity. Therefore, the former (in timeline fashion) doesn't need the latter. The only way Christianity would have an impact on Jews or Judaism is if there was a complete amalgamation. Since that won't be happening, there is no cause for concern.

Since both Judaism and Christianity share the text of the Old Testament, if that is wrong then so is Judaism. I mean COMPLETELY, not only the part that sets it apart form other religions. If Jesus, GOD, and EVERYTHING in the Bible DID NOT exist, then Juadism would be wrong, since Christianity, Judaism and Islam all believe in the same God. So if he were not real, then all three religions would be wrong. If Jesus never existed, then the Qur'an would be wrong. If Abraham, Moses and numerous other prophets named in all three holy books never existed, then all three religions would be wrong. That is what I meant.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste JRnetwork,

thank you for the post.

Since both Judaism and Christianity share the text of the Old Testament, if that is wrong then so is Judaism.

this is a common mistake that many Christians make. what you have in your Christian bible called the Old Testament is not, in fact, an accurate copy of the Torah. there are books missing and others are rearranged.

I mean COMPLETELY, not only the part that sets it apart form other religions. If Jesus, GOD, and EVERYTHING in the Bible DID NOT exist, then Juadism would be wrong, since Christianity, Judaism and Islam all believe in the same God.

whilst i'm happy to let those of the Abrahamic faiths slug this out for themselves... with a proper reading of the Torah it becomes clear that neither Christians nor Muslims are worshipping the same God as the Jews, though i would venture that Muslims are much closer than Christians, as a rule.

not to get too far afield, however, the normitive Christian view is what Jews would call "idolotry". i'm sure that you are aware of the significance of this.

So if he were not real, then all three religions would be wrong.

if this were so, then i would agree.

it is a matter of faith, as you know. nevertheless Christians are not, technically, monotheists... though that sort of depends on the specific school of Christianity that is practiced... you folks are, generally, Henotheists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

If Jesus never existed, then the Qur'an would be wrong. If Abraham, Moses and numerous other prophets named in all three holy books never existed, then all three religions would be wrong. That is what I meant.

the issue is, really, what is left out of the Bible makes it inapplicable to base an understanding of Judaism upon. Thus, should the Bible be proven to be incorrect, it really has no impact upon Judaism, per se, since they don't use the Bible to form their religous views.

metta,

~v

 

[SearchingintheNight]

i'm trying to prove that christianity is not about works , but about the "born-again" phenomena...

Being "born-again" in christianity is the belief that once you accept Jesus as your savior , your spirit is now cleansed from all unrighteousness and biblical truth is revealed to you , and you also get a super naturalist feeling ( the born again phenomena ) of complete Joy , Peace , and Truth... If you have any questions about the born again phenomina , please ask them here ...

So you do have to preform a work....you have to believe?

 

[JRNetwork]

.... I do not think you see my point. Although the descriptions of each person mentioned in all three books may be different, they are the same person, even if the differences are great, they are still meerly details. You said yourself that it is not an exact copy, but it is a copy, which means there is at least some truth to it (Torah compared to the Old Testament) and if the large chunk of truth about the person in the Old Testament is a lie, then you no longer have a complete image of the person in the Torah (or Qur'an).

An example would be....
If Moses were a....TV. Judaism describes a TV as a cube shaped electronic machine in which images are transmitted from radio waves, and is powered by electricity.

Now lets say that Christianity describes a TV as a cube shaped electronic machine in which images are transmitted from low frequency radio waves, and is powered by AC electricity.

If all that Christianity said about TVs were complete lie, then there are no TVs, and even though Judaism has TVs in its religion, if this was a lie, then there would never have been TVs (although their faith in TVs would be unaltered).

 

[JRNetwork]

Im not saying that Judaism would no longer exist, just that it would be a lie.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste JRnetwork,

thank you for the post.

Im not saying that Judaism would no longer exist, just that it would be a lie.

however, that is not correct.

Judaism doesn't teach what Christianity does and, ipso facto, is not predicated upon the correctness or not, of the Christian doctrines

metta,

~v